#53

Yes, cholecalciferol is…cholecalciferol. There has to be a mechanism that is causing the harm. This thread is all over the place. Can we please keep it simple?

2 Likes
#54

so would u say that this damaging synthetic form is in most all multi vitamins especially the less expensive ones ?

#55

I would say it is not damaging.

3 Likes
#56

Thankyou AnUser, yes it has got confusing and I will try and keep this simple. I posted a link previously which said in part:

Natural vitamin D contains sulfate molecules. Traditionally vitamin D has been made from UVB rays from the sun interacting with cholesterol sulfate within the skin. Scientific study has found that sunlight and cod liver oil have protective effects against CVD. Synthetic vitamin D doesn’t have sulfate molecules, animal studies show the synthetic form can cause damage to arteries.

Evaluating scientific literature comparing the two forms as equals based on labels can been seen as a mistake since the molecular structure of natural vitamin D has sulfate molecules attached and synthetic versions do not, they have different molecular structures and synthetic forms should be more critically evaluated.

Sunlight is the main natural source for vitamin D which has been consistently shown to have cardio-protective effects, lower blood pressure, and help to reduce risk of heart attacks, stroke, and many forms of cancer such as breast cancer.

In a controlled study synthetic vitamin D given to swines showed pathological damage to thoracic aorta in swine consuming the equivalent of 11000 IU of vitamin D3 daily; and lower doses of 2200 IU of D3 daily worsened atherosclerosis in the animals on high fat diets."

John Hemming responded by questioning the credibility of the website but not evaluating the claims. I do not know if the claims are correct but am interested to know if the natural and synthetic forms are actually the same.

I was also concerned by the link I have posted a few times of research stating that a high percentage of vitamins and food fortified with Vitamin D have been found not to accurately state the dosage, and this has even resulted in deaths.

I then discovered that most codliver oil on the market is fortified with synthetic Vit D and so simply assuming the vitamin D in Codliver oil would be present in natural and safe quantities may not be safe.

Being winter where I live I have decided to stick to pate, tinned Codlivers and also take K2.

BobinUK also shared an interesting link about Boron - which I have started to take as well.

I get it that John Hemming assumes everything is okay with supplemental Vit D - but as it has been used to artificially age lab animals (my first post) and the stated dosage may not be accurate I have chosen to risk erring on the side of safety.

#57

Synthetic vitamin D is exactly the same molecule as sunlight produces in the synthesis of active forms of vitamin D. You can see cholecalciferol in this picture.

image

If you have evidence that cod liver oil has vitamin D3 sulfate and that this is healthier, it would be interesting to see

1 Like
#58

When it comes to issues of scientific research it is worth being precise. Everyone gets some things wrong and sometimes the issues are in the detail.

and this has even resulted in deaths.

It is clearly misleading to say this. There were two deaths which were caused by fortified milk in the USA having massively more vitamin D3 (probably synthetic because otherwise it would have been quite expensive). One was directly caused by the D3 affecting calcium handling and the other was as a result of the medical treatment intended to help the person with an overdose of D3.

You have not cited any evidence of harm from standard synthetic D3 supplements which arose as a result of inaccuracy in terms of the stated dosage.

I have not checked, but I would expect that the level of D3 in natural cod liver oil would vary.

Pubchem is a website that gives details of chemicals here is the entry for D3

You will see that it has the chemical formula C27H44O

There are arguments in science where the science is not settled, but as far as the chemical formula for D3 goes there is only one answer.

1 Like
Vitamin D supplements may reduce risk of serious cardiovascular events in older people
#59

Thanks or your input AnUser, so if synthetic vitamin D is the same as that which we form in our bodies this raises a few questions for me.

  1. Can too much vitamin D from the sun therefor be toxic?
  2. At what dose does vitamin D stop being beneficial and start being toxic? 2200iu daily for swine (I imagine they are large animals) does not sound like a huge dose.
  3. Or do cofactors completely determine toxicity ie. Vitamin A, K2, Boron etc. and not dose?
  4. Is the only ageing effect of vitamin D toxicity calcification of tissues or are there others?

I started out pro cod liver oil at the start of this thread but changed my mind when I discovered most brands have been fortified without that being stated on the label, which frankly does not build trust. I am eating cod livers now (quite delicious in a salad) but do not have hard evidence this is safer, beyond common sense, until the concerns I have regarding synthetic Vitamin D are settled. Thank you for helping move that enquiry forward.

#60

1000 iu is probably safe and beneficial:

Getting it from the sun will just ruin your skin and increase your risk of skin cancer.
I take a vegan D3 made from lichen for ethical reasons.

2 Likes
#61

The main measure of toxicity is the concentration of 25ohd in blood. This is often in a blood panel. Its a good idea to know the effect of supplementation rather than guess it.

Some people have problems with d3 metabolism and need to use it in a different way.

Best, therefore to do the blood test.

2 Likes
#62

I completely agree. The blood test will tell you if you can metabolize vitamin D effectively.

For instance, I have found that I don’t metabolize it well. Even at 5000 IUs a day, I am barely in the normal range of 30-100 Ng/ml. My score is 31 Ng/ml. Therefore I probably need 10000 IUs a day.

5000 IUs only takes my score up 10-20 ng/ml. I was deficient before.

1 Like
#63

I think there are limits as to how much someone can metabolise in a day. If you are finding difficulties at 5000iu you might be best trying to get some 25OHD. You need to be careful with 25OHD because you can rapidly increase serum levels without many drops. I think there is a version available in Spain, but I get dedrogyl. Each drop in theory is 200iu, but I find it has the same effect as 1,000 iu of cholecalciferol in oil. What I do is I take 3,000 iu of D3 every day, but I top up once a week to keep the levels around the top end of normal.

2 Likes
#64

I have just found this which identifies some circumstance in which 1,25 diHydroxy Vitamin D (the active form which comes after the 25OHD storage form) inhibits mTOR.

3 Likes
#65

Its unlikely to get too much from the sun as the sun only triggers a response to produce vitamin D so not likely to “over make” it to dangerous levels. But the sun can cause damage from the UV rays.

#66

This is what I use, Calcifediol, but it is prescription only. Do you get DIDROGYL without prescription? Seems really reasonably priced.

#67

“Dedrogyl” requires a prescription, but if you send a low 25OHD blood test result to an international pharmacy they will prescribe Dedrogyl. In the end this will be a matter of cost really as I would not think the Calcifediol that you use is materially different.

In the UK there is a prescription version of Calcifediol which is so weak you might not bother. It does apply for people who have particular D3 processing issues, but those are rare.

#68

Yes, it is the same product but DIDROGYL seems really reasonably priced at 5,5 EUR in Italy, I pay for Calcifediol Rx I am using around 7x this price for the same amount of ingredient.
Do you prefer Calcifediol to Cholecalciferol? Are there benefits in using it besides quick serum response?

#69

karism,

The above copy quoted, what are the reference/references?

#70
#71

I think unprocessed Cholecalciferol is mildly toxic in that it causes me sleep problems. I think there is a limit as to how much can be readily processed on a daily basis and I prefer to get my D3 from a mixture of Cholecalciferol and Calcifediol.

Hence to me there is a benefit of improved sleep. (because of less harm).

1 Like
#72

Which as a website appears to be particularly unreliable.

I have tried looking for this reference:

Takagi T et al. Coronary atherosclerosis in swine induced by a mild dietary excess of (synthetic) vitamin D. Nutr. Rep Int. 1983;28:1111-1118

I found this:

Which has a similar author, but does not seem to justify the claim.

Let me be entirely clear, however, it is possible to overdose on vitamin D and overdosing will disrupt calcium processing.

1 Like