#1
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#2

you can just add that as a post on here How to Reverse Skin Aging - #1105 by Steve_Combi, no need to start a new thread
we already discussed exosomes there

#3

I strongly disagree. I don’t think “exosomes” are promising for much, and there’s a huge amount of hype. Most studies are not reproducible (my lab has tried), the methods and doses used are so variable that they are close to worthless. We still basically have no idea how these things “work”, whether they’ve really taken into cells, what the cargo is etc. Unfortunately tons of cosmetic companies, professors with spinout companies etc have jumped onto the bandwagon.

There’s basically a massive circlejerk now, where you can find that exosomes do absolutely everything to every single system in the body. I’ve also been responsible for peer reviewing several exosome/skin studies, all of which are pretty clear advertising attempts to try and get some sort of peer reviewed study out to support whatever product the authors are trying to sell.

As for this specific article, it is quite badly written (“The exosome can transport mRNA, nucleic acids, or protein chaperones if they carry substances that are instead lipids, proteins or have a cytoplasmic content; they are accepted by recipient cells and can lead to the modification of pathological or physiological functions of the target cells as a result of exosome-specific cell interactions”, lol wtf). Plus, it’s published in a semi-predatory journal which has almost no academic value.

The only potentially useful application is something like platelet-derived lysates or microparticles, which are in early human clinical trials for wound healing. Those make sense because platelets, PRP etc are already used clinically with good effect. For the stem cell EV stuff, I wouldn’t buy into the hype which is largely driven by marketing and profit.

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#4

@relaxedmeatball, if so inclined, I’d love it if you weigh in on an exosome serum I’ve been using for the past year. Based on your experience, it sounds like exosomes might not be doing anything?

My skin has been great on it and I no longer need any additional moisturizer, not to mention the heavy one I used to need, but it also contains many good basic ingredients, so I realize it might not be the exosomes doing the magic.

I justify the cost because it’s a one and done product… vit c, niacinamide, copper (if that does anything?), peptides, ceramides etc…

Ingredients:
Human Umbilical Mesenchymal Stem Cell Conditioned Media, Water (Aqua), Glycerin, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Sodium Hyaluronate, Niacinamide, Panthenol, Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Ascorbyl Glucoside, Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Caesalpinia Spinosa Gum, Bis(tripeptide-1) Copper Acetate, Polysorbate 20, Polysorbate 60, Ceramide NP, Ceramide AP, Ceramide EOP, Acetyl Octapeptide-3, Palmitoyl Tripeptide-37, Palmitoyl Tripeptide-1, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-7, Acetyl Hexapeptide-8, Trifluoroacetyl Tripeptide-2, Dextran, Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate, Pullulan, Arginine, Glutathione, Yeast Extract, Nannochloropsis Oculata Extract, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract, Citrullus lanatus (Watermelon) Fruit Extract, Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Extract, Lens Esculenta (Lentil) Fruit Extract, Sodium PCA, Sodium Lactate, Sodium Phytate, Leuconostoc/Radish Root Ferment Filtrate, Caprylyl Glycol, Ethylhexylglycerin, Phytosphingosine, Cholesterol, Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, Carbomer, Xanthan gum, Phenoxyethanol, Hexylene Glycol, Butylene Glycol, Disodium Phosphate, Sodium Phosphate, Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate

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#5

Hi Beth,

Honestly, I just think there’s no way to know. As you say, there are a bunch of ingredients in there, performing all sorts of different roles - hydration, creating a barrier for evaporation and water loss etc. I think if you like the product, and it gives you the desired results and no adverse effects, there’s no reason to stop using it IMO :slight_smile:

I am not saying that exosomes don’t do anything. I am saying that the hype and marketing is WAY ahead of any sort of reliable data. There are thousands of positive studies showing exosomes can do all sorts of functions - reducing myocardial infarct sizes, repairing strokes, promoting neurogenesis, slowing dementia, improving wound healing, improving kidney function, reducing arthritic etc etc etc. The problem is, there is massive variation in the methodology for isolation and characterisation between labs, very little consistency of the detected cargo. I’ve seen papers claiming that microRNA-XYZ in exosomes from an umbilical MSC (as in your skin serum) does whatever function, and when we isolate those ourselves, we don’t even find that same miRNA to be present. Looking at online databases (EV-TRACK, Vesiclepedia etc) you find the same sort of variability.

To a larger point, there still aren’t even good guidelines for qualifying what exactly an “exosome” is (preferred term is extracellular vesicle, EV), or defining their purity, cargo, activity, biodistribution etc. It’s not like, for example, the ceramides in your skin serum, where it is a defined chemical with a structure, and it’s added at a known concentration which can be measured. We still can’t reliably do that for EVs because it’s a biological product. Approaches include quantifying by total protein, total particle number, total lipid content, but all of those vary between different isolation, preparation and characterisation methods. I also note that your product contains conditioned medium, so that presumably is including freely-secreted growth factors, cytokines etc in addition to the vesicles. Whether those factors can interact with the skin in a meaningful way, I am not sure. As peptides, they probably can’t easily cross through the epidermal barriers and reach the dermis where the connective tissue, blood vessels etc reside. Again, I’m not saying that the entire thing is inherently bullshit or that this can never work - just that I am deeply sceptical, and I’m trying not to get suckered into a bunch of hype.

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#6

That is really helpful and quite interesting! I love getting a peek behind the curtain.

And to your point, unless I find another good combo product, I’ll probably keep using this because my skin seems to love it… and because with the Trinny London vit c and peptide serum I was using, along with a moisturizer, I’m not really spending much more on this product.

On that note, you mentioned peptides. Can you clarify something for me. I’ve heard we should use a peptide serum. Is that marketing bunk, or are you only saying that these particular peptides in this product might not be doing anything.

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#7

FWIW…

I have been considering/looking at exosomes for IV.

I am considering Kimera Labs products.

Yes, I am fully aware there are NO FDA approved products, for any exosomes{AND I DO NOT CARE IF PRODUCTS ARE FDA APPROVED FOR SALE]

#8

Keep us posted!

I just peeked at their website. FWIW, I 10000% don’t believe the before and after photo of the first woman. But, that is not to say it’s not a great product.

I did just start using the Musely exosome rapamycin serum just to try rapamycin (I got caught up when reading about people diy’ing it). No idea if it does anything.

#9

IMO, probably marketing. The skin is really good at keeping things outside, and keeping your own stuff inside! Your epidermis has layers of dead flattened cells, made of insoluble proteins surrounded by fats (stratum corneum) on the upper layers, followed by layers of barrier cells joined by water tight junctions. Plus a bunch of other defences like low pH, enzymes, antimicrobial peptides, The main site of aging is the dermis (where the collagen, elastin etc is) and it is very difficult for anything to cross through the intact epidermis and reach the dermis. To my knowledge, peptides are too large to pass through by themselves.

Also, when something reaches the dermis, it has access to blood vessels and systemic circulation. From a regulatory point of view, active substances which pass through the skin would be qualified as a transdermal drug (imagine like a nicotine patch, hormone replacement patch, fentanyl patch etc). A cosmetic, by definition, would only act on the superficial layers.

That said, there are some active compounds sold as cosmetics, like retinol, so there must be some regulatory grey areas.

That’s why things like microneedling are used because you literally punch holes through the epidermis and allow things to penetrate into the dermis. However, you do then risk side effects, including possibly immune reactions against the foreign proteins.

End of the day, I think if the product is working for you, has no apparent negative effects, then you can continue to use it. It doesn’t really “matter” which active component (whether exosomes, peptides, the ceramides etc) are doing something. It’s about the overall result, and if you really like the way it performs, then I don’t see any problem with continuing to use it.

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#10

I am very curious about this. What is your motivation and expected benefit?

#11

Very true. While exosomes are promising, the cargo they carry is in general a highly uncharacterized and unstandardized mix of tons of things so it’s hard to know what is having an effect. The cargo will depend on so many factors, like the cell type and state of the cell and etc.

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#12

This researcher has found that certain MicroRNAs in exosomes account for their beneficial effects. A handul of them that he has tried, in combination, have given the best results. He is trying other combinations and says other labs are doing the same. Expects human trials on skin, since effects would be easiest to determine - more accessible for biopsies and such.

Oops. Apologies to LDV who had already posted this video on the Dr. Katcher E5 thread. It does appear to be a refinement of E5. I’ll leave it up here, though, because it addresses further progress in the area of exosomes.

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#13

My two cents is that it looks like good ingredients overall, not a lot of filler crap. I’m sure it’s a great serum. But even the results they post on their website from 16 weeks of use could be bested by $2 tubes of tretinoin out of India and a good barrier moisturizer (cerave or something like that). Then with the money you’ll save over a year you can either buy an Ultraformer machine or Tixel machine or sculptra injections or prf injections. You name it.

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