#12

That was my point exactly. There are quite a few people here I suspect in the latter group, myself included.

#13

It would be interesting to see what the senescent cells load is for people taking Rapamycin or Taurine and compare that to a normal person and someone taking D+Q.

Does anyone here measure their senescent cells that could share some data?

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#14

how do you measure that?

#15

Most senescent cells are located in your adipose tissue (fat). I guess you’d take a fat sample and analyze it?

Anyone planning on having a liposuction treatment soon? :wink:

One of the best-characterized and simplified methods to measure senescence in vitro and in vivo is the β-galactosidase (β-Gal) assay , which measures β-Gal activity expressed by senescent cells that can be detectable at pH 6.0 by immunohistochemistry.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4824275/

#16

Rapamycin is thought to be a senomorphic - meaning it prevents cells from getting into the senescent phase, There is no data to show that it is a senolytic, I have been dosing with D+Q for the last 2 years (maybe more) at 100 mg D + 1.5 g Q, three days in a row for three weeks every 4-5 months and I have seen no noticeable effect.

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#17

I take Rapa at 6 mg. every Sunday, Dasatnib (100mg.) + Quercetin (1200mg) for two consecutive days every other month, and 3gm of Taurine daily. I started with Rapa and Senolytics 3 years ago because of problematic osteoarthriitis limiting physical activity and other symptoms of chronic inflammation. Two years later my knees were 100% again (at age 63) and distance trail running in the hills again with my dog. In the past year, I added GlyNAC (3gm and 2gm daily) and Taurine (3 gm daily), but that was after two years with Rapa and senolytics only. My most recent blood test came through with a CRP less than one, my gum pockets (recent dental exam) are about one third the depth they used to be (common measure of systemic inflammation), and I have zero osteoarthritis when three years ago it was deblitating. My N=1 is the senolytics plus Rapa were a game-changer that gave me my life back (as measured by tangible pain and inflammation levels). Taurine and GlyNAC were only added after the dramatic changes in health form the first two years with Rapa and senolytics. All other supplements are just the common basics like fish oil, vitamin d, magnesium, etc., and would not have produced the effects as described above.

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Anti-aging Benefits of Rapamycin, Personal Experiences (part 2)
#18

@Todd Welcome to the forum and thank you for your N=1 experience! It does coincide with the results of many others who are doing similar treatments. It’s always great to add one more anecdote to the list!

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#19

A nice reading about targeting senescent cells with a lot of pictures and explanation.

Maybe mentioned before on the forum.

#20

My boyfriend has a knee injury after increasing his jogging intensity. He also has an orthopedic imbalance, so he should quit jogging all together. The knee pain developed around last year, when he started walking long distances and dieting for weight loss. After the weight was gone, the pain also resolved, until starting a vigorous jogging routine. I now want to help him heal and get the knee back to normal.

How do you know what exactly caused your improvements? Was it the rapamycin, the senolytics or the combination of both? I’m against the senolytics for my boyfriend, bc of the risks and the lack of data. For myself, I would take more risk, but for loved ones I’ll stay on the safe side.

He’ll be 28 soon, but has that orthopedic imbalance, what could cause his cartilage to decay more quickly. I think at this age, senolytics are not the way to go.

#21

@Todd Have you considered temporarily stopping either the Rapamycin or the senolytics to figure out which is helping you?

#22

I"m no medical doctor and have no qualification to give medical advice, but all of my research says Rapamycin and Senolytics treatments have no relevance for someone that’s only 28 years old. Geometrically increasing senescent cell burden generally doesn’t begin until crossing the age 40 barrier, and rarely compounds into a noticeable problem with physical symptom manifestations until mid-50s to mid-60s (based on my friend group of aging athletes). It takes years for this stuff to develop in a normally aging population. Age 28 doesn’t apply. My two cents worth.

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#23

No, I have no intention of stopping as long as all of my markers are moving in the right direction. Why fix it if it’s working?

I was in a full-blown health crisis at age 60, and I feel better today at age 63 than I did at age 40.

Stopping one (or both) of the treatments after the positive change isn’t likely to tell me anything useful. I took those meds for a reason, and the results matched expectations.

I’m clear (from extensive research) why I’m using these specific treatments and how they relate to the aging process, and the past 3 years show that they’re playing well with my body.

The only motivation for change would be if I learn something new that points toward something better (which I fully expect to occur every year with all the research in this field), or if I see my markers move adversely.

Until then, I’m not going to tinker with something that’s working.

Hopefully that makes sense…

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#24

I think your post makes logical sense, but you are making some assumptions. Are Rapamycin, Dasatinib and Quercitin completely safe medications, especially when combined? Are they safe when used chronically?
Should you take 3 medications when 1 might have the same benefit?
I’m happy for you that you have had success. I see one of the purposes of this website is to question each other since there is so much unknown about what we are doing. I also go by the oath of “first, do no harm”.

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#25

The problem is it takes too long to test the individual variables.

Though I personally would not take D+Q except intermittently, though many people are taking low doses of dasatinib for extended periods. I certainly wouldn’t recommend it for any extended time if you are younger than 60.

Many people do take dasatinib long-term, especially those with chronic myeloid leukemia.

There is some evidence that dasatinib might prevent certain forms of cancer.

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#26

I understand what you’re saying. And I have no problem with your questions.

I just see it differently.

“First, do no harm” is replaced with “aging does harm.” Inaction (and action) both have consequences.

I agree with @desertshores on both points - the testing suggestion you’re offering isn’t practical, and senolytics should be taken intermittently. I consider my “once every two month” an appropriate intermittent protocol given the research. Fully agreed on both counts.

Yes, I’m making assumptions. We both are. They’re just different.

Yes, there’s uncertainty in every decision I’m making. But I’ve done the research and I’m comfortable with the decisions… for now. I’m not winging it. All decisions are based on known research and followed up with biomarker testing. Each medication has different effects. The interrelationship are complicated. Fully agreed.

So yes, there’s uncertainty and risk. But that risk is being managed to the best of my ability. “First do no harm” is being replaced with a minimalist approach of intelligent risk-managed decisions. My stack is tiny compared to many people because I believe far more is unknown about human biology than known. I say “no” to new ideas/supplements far more often than “yes” to respect the inherent systemic elegance and beauty of human biology.

But aging is inherently risky. And enough is known to take intelligent, risk-managed action to improve outcomes. First do no harm no longer makes sense as offering the best risk/reward outcome.

I fully expect to change this protocol going forward, but not in the way you’re suggesting. I fully expect game-changing discoveries in the field of senolytics and rapalogs that will be vastly superior to what I’m doing now. I’m guessing my current treatment protocol will look laughably crude 20 years from now, but 20 years is too late. Time is of the essence.

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#27

That is certainly my motto at 83 :sweat_smile:

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#28

Seriously? Stop D&Q for a few months. See how you feel.

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#29

I’m guessing from your statement that you’re not understanding the role of senescent cell population growth in aging and how senolytics and senomorphics interact to affect the aging process.

The net compound growth of your senescent cell population only becomes meaningful when measured over many years (a couple decades by age 63, in my case), or 4 decades for @desertshores), and it only becomes symptomatic to how you feel when that burden exceeds certain thresholds of concentration in specific tissues.

You can think of it like a compound return equation in wealth building. When you start at $100, you hardly notice the first few doubles in your wealth (same with senscent cells after age 40). The accumulation remains relatively meaningless. But when you hit 2 million dollars (think age 55-65) and then double again, that sudden accumulation has life-changing implications. The same is true with the senescent burden in your tissues as you compound them during aging.

The chance that I’ll feel any different after a few months of stopping D&Q is unlikely, not to mention that that subjective changed “feeling” could be due to any number of confounding life factors that have nothing to do with cessation of D+Q. It’s simply not a valid test.

Additionally, any subjective change in experience of life with and without D+Q already occurs between every dose since I only take it once every two months. That means my system already spends the vast bulk of it’s time without any D+Q. Taking an extended break would change only one thing - the compound growth of the underlying senescent cell population.

Finally, a few months of change would be similarly meaningless because the existing dosing regimen would mean I would only miss a handful (or less) samples. That’s also not going to be meaningful in this compound growth equation given my current position in that equation.

My suggestion is to study senolytics with a special emphasis on the work by Dr. James Kirkland. He’s a leading researcher in this field providing unusual insights on this topic.

Hope that helps!

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#30

So, can you then stop the Rapamycin?
I’ll have to look into senolytics again, but I just haven’t seen much that convinces me that they offer much beyond what Rapa is doing.

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#31

LOL! If you want to stop Rapamycin then that’s up to you.

It doesn’t make any sense for you to ask another person to test your theories on their health.

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