scta123
#346
I also think 600 is quite good. What is your free T? This is the more important measurement.
Also I think taking it daily it is not good for libido and erections. It messes too much with estrogen receptors. Did you measure your E2 too?
2 Likes
Alex
#347
These are my results for all testing I just did. I am 62 years old. My actual total T was 688, which is good enough for me I guess. I can tell some positive physical differences from this, now being higher than about 515 about a year ago. Deeper voice and bulked up a bit too. I work out religiously. The only side effect I can detect is a bit more hair falling out every time I shower. But certainly no major shedding.
For dosing, if not daily, then how often? Should I then take a larger dose but less frequency to get to the same amount over time?
As you can see I did not measure E2, likely because I did not even know that existed as a measurement. What does it tell us?
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SNK
#348
I thought you had indicated earlier that clomiphene had doubled your T(based on a previous post you had made)? Or was it that you were taking tongcat Ali at same time and now you feel it was Tongcat ali?
30 days of Tongkat Ali more the doubled my T. Then I stopped and started clomiphene.
After taking only clomiphene for ~60 days my T was slightly reduced.
1 Like
SNK
#350
BTW when is best time to take tonkat Ali in the morning or before bed?
scta123
#351
Low E2 in males can cause decreased sex drive, excess belly fat, bone loss, osteoporosis…
High E2 in males would cause erectile dysfunction, weight gain, decrease in libido or sexual drive, enlargement of the breast tissue, depression, loss of energy or feeling tired and decrease in muscle mass…
It is a sweet spot. And selective estrogen receptor modulators of course can mess with the numbers. They increase T by fooling the body there is no E2, so testicles produce T that is aromatized in E2 to simplify.
My endocrinologist thinks once or twice weekly dosing (or E4D) is most favorable to keep hormones balanced. The stimulation is by what I understand not dose dependent and you should find your lowest still active dose with least side effects. It depends on personal biology (sesitivity/number of receptors…) but his recommendation was not exceeding 25-50mg per week. But some guys do best at doses as low as 3,125mg twice weekly. I would say 6,25mg twice weekly or 12,5mg twice weekly is optimal from anecdotal reports.
2 Likes
Alex
#352
Thanks for the advice on breaks, I will give that a shot.
Having said that, the dose you are proposing is at most about 25% of what I am taking each week now, though I have no side-effects. I did titrate up to the amount I am taking. So with that in mind, I would think breaks are still a good idea but I think I will take more than 12.5 each time.
When is the best time to take TongKat Ali?
Doesn’t matter that much.
Some take it in the morning to help daytime energy levels.
Some take it 30-40 minutes before a workout.
You can take it in the evening, but not too close to bedtime.
I was taking 400 mg/day
200mg in the morning
200mg with supper
scta123
#354
Yes, I understand, but in my endocrinologist words, more is not always more. The stimulation of hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis is not dose dependent and larger dose of selective estrogen receptor modulators does not translate automatically to more T. But if you have no side effect on your large dose I wouldn’t worry that much. As I said it is mostly personal. But keep an eye on LH and FSH and E2 too. Some men are more sensitive to E2 than others. If you can check your desmosterol levels where you live, that would be advisable too, since SERMs have the potential to mess your cholesterol production (desmosterol is precursor to cholesterol).
3 Likes
HPA is interesting because of its cycles. I know that the interelationship between melatonin and the HPA cycles depends upon the timing in the cycle. I would not be surprised if other interfaces also had timing as well as dose dependent effects.
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J0hn
#356
I know, at least in mice, that the adrenal gland changes size on a 24 hour diurnal cycle. I know because I had to measure them.
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Alex
#357
Thanks for helping me. I appreciate the need for more testing here. Will think about the dose a bit more.
I am really not interested in getting big effects here. So I definitely do not want to risk any significant consequences.
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Which clinical trials is basing his statements on? Clearly we have all seen plenty of counterexamples of men over the age of 40 gaining muscle mass while exercizing.
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I have gained muscle mass and strength in the last two years. Honestly, in my entire life, I have never been able to lift as heavy weights as I do now. I credit this due to rapamycin and exercise.
If he wasn’t promoting something he would be a lot more believable.
As for Harvard they just finished retracting over 300 fairly recent papers.
There may be some outliers where strength training doesn’t work, but for the mainstream it does.
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Alex
#362
Clickbait. I think that strength training for men is a huge game changer. It has de-aged me and positively changed me tremendously.
But it can be overdone. That is why it is important to listen to your body and respect your limits.
5 Likes
A friendly reminder…
This is an MRI image of 3 people:
The top is a 40 year old triathlete.
The middle is a 74 year old sedentary person.
The bottom is a 74 year old triathlete.
The dark part is the muscle and the light part is the fat.
The lesson is you either use it or lose it.
Source: https://x.com/FitFounder/status/1752746373428977692?s=20
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Neo
#364
These are powerful thanks for sharing.
I’m not sure it proved that though. Will I personally exercise 5-6 times a week, I do something wonder if I’m exercising to much from an optimal longevity path.
Might it be that the optimal exercise could we frequent, short, but not too much in young age and then more in older age?
I young age we are after often good/better metabolically and body composition wise. So while have more growth pathways uprefulaged than needed. While as we age, we may need more excise to deal with less well functioning mitochondria, worse muscle/protein synthesis, etc?
I would be interesting to info what such images would look like for for instance Michael Lustgarten who only exercises in a limited but regular way - when he is of that age.
Or even what they would look like for someone who exercised not that much, but will on a regular basis from young age and then in their late 60s or so began to ramp it up.
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I’d bet that regular activity is more important than “exercise” (weight lifting, cardio machines, balance drills). We should hike on rough trails and walk and run fast and run slow and play tennis and throw a football and swim underwater and climb a tree (or a cliff). And do it outside. Engage the brain to get the full benefit.
I am doing none of these things right now. It weighs heavily on my mind.
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Sadly, it is not possible or practical for me to do any of the things you mentioned.
But, currently, I am going to the gym 6-7 times a week for no more than 30 minutes max.
I do circuit training on various machines. Circuit training for me is doing from 10 - 20 reps on each machine and moving on to the next with no break. The loads, I am using raise my heart rate and this seems to be working quite well for me. The weight loads are the highest I have ever managed and I seem to be gaining muscle mass. I will be able to tell shortly as I only do chest, biceps, etc. measurements every 3 months.
Yes, I agree getting outdoors and doing the things you suggest are great for those who have the opportunity and can do these things.
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I’m with you, @desertshores : I’m 53 so not in the same age class but lifting heavy have remarkably changed my body composition as well as how I feel. My father died at 79 and was wasting away with sarcopenia; I promise you from decades of observing this that none of us want to go this way. I’m planning to make this a life-long practice, so this involves being smart about not injuring myself and giving ample time to recover and rest.
For those of you who are afraid that lifting heavy weights will make you blow up like a bodybuilding, I have been lifting very heavy for a year and definitely look different but absolutely do NOT look like I can lift the weight I do: a good friend of mine just last night (who is a former UFC fighter and looks like a beast) just said this to me last night. The heavy lifting just made me more lean looking, better posture, and made me fare more stable and makes everyday tasks so much easier. So I’m a believer of Peter Attia’s “centagenarian Olympics” philosophy. I’d actually like to look a bit more “ripped” but I’m not willing to focus on this over strength because I assume strength (dense muscles) is better for longevity than “volume” (big less-dense muscles).
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