Bicep
#21
Yeah, if you search here you will see a few including @desertshores take it. I use potassium or magnesium and around 10 grams of powder. It gives me energy and helps lose weight. If I’m doing serious work I do it for sure. I use the bulk supplement stuff, but I think it’s all the same so just buy the cheapest. MCT work too, but use small doses as it can cause gut ache. That is probably the cheapest route.
Masterjohn went over another possibility which is to throw a little baking soda into apple cider vinegar and chug once the reaction is done. Use a large container. No, I don’t remember the chemistry but tried it a couple times and like the cost. I’ll try a search later.
Bicep
#22
Found it:
quarter teaspoon of baking soda, 1 tbsp ACV and a cup of water. And now you see why I didn’t include a quick explanation of the chemistry.
AnUser
#23
That study doesn’t have a control group…
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Thank you, @Tomnook . I found this interesting even though it was a small study (n=37?) because:
o. They used the already very well known and well studied statistics on cancer survivability as their control group (huge increases versus typical statistics)
o. They also segmented their results into bins as an internal statistical control ;(above 90 and below 90) on glucose blood levels, which show dramatic increases in survival for the below 90 group versus the above 90 group. (Using this as their control group)
o. They mixed up a bunch of cancers in the study so that it can’t be claimed than the diet had a specific impact on only one cancer, and more likely had a common impact on most of them.
o. I cant imagine a clinical trial approval committee saying “you believe that this diet should dramatically increase survivability: let’s select a group to die earlier.” On mice? — yes, no problem. On humans for an “effect” that is not survivability? — even that is likely to pass if the effect isn’t harming patients. But for survivability? — I can’t imagine that control of a study would be approved. Trhis is probably as good a study on survivability than can be allowed.
(Now waiting for the bot comments — does anyone have the over/under on a 10 minute bot response?)
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AnUser
#25
Yes, because that’s a control group, right…
So that’s a logical contradiction, there is one and there isn’t, all that needs to be said.
I can’t believe that FDA is requiring control groups in cancer treatments.
https://x.com/gorskon/status/1305864992483401728
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@Ericross2 I’m glad you posted this. It is a worthwhile discussion - whether Keto diets have health benefits in certain conditions - for example Alzheimer’s disease, seizure disorder, bipolar disease and some individuals with thought disorders? Does it decrease progression of cancer?
All potentially valid areas with varying evidence.
For longevity, without a good other medical condition that a keto diet could be beneficial, I’d not advise it. However, a high quality keto diet, which takes effort properly crafting, could be a valid approach for many individuals.
I have patients who rely on it solely for their cancers - I’d not advise this, unless it is a malignancy where the current treatments are not likely to do anything but add toxicity.
As a WFPB person myself - I think it is important to recognize there are a range of options to success and once size doesn’t fit all.
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AnUser
#27
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, especially for such a controversial and difficult diet as the keto diet, with possible side effects (adherance to this diet, like many others, is low).
There was a long-term study on keto diet, and only 12% were in ketosis after a few years:
These were participants who were paid to be in the study, self-selected, with physician and nutritionist support nearly daily through a smartphone app, and held accountable by blood ketone levels.
(3:03:00-3:06:00)
If they were given a pill instead, most of them would adhere to it to for health benefits. So not only does this diet have barely any documented benefit, even those who want to be on it, very few end up following the diet even when they have lots of support.
Diets are pretty much a dead end, it seems.
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It’s an interesting topic mechanistically. There is growing interest in fasting and the fasting mimicking diet and ketosis during cancer treatment.
The idea is to take advantage of the dependence of most cancer cells on glucose for their metabolism, and so have them in a stressed environment when hitting them with chemotherapy while they are already more vulnerable.
Some studies performed in mice. Early trials being performed in humans. But intriguing mechanism for sure. Need more clinical trial for validation.
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But is it directly related to ketones or moreso to low mTOR activity which we know for fact works?
I am under the impression (from many diabetes podcasts at the gym) that increasing the acidity of your stomach acid (with vinegar or lemon juice, etc) before you eat carbs (partially) blocks an enzyme in your stomach which depolymerizes the complex carbs, and allows a larger portion of the complex carbs to move into your small intestines unbroken, and thus prevents sugars from entering your small intestines as easily. This may reduce your ability to absorb calories from carbs but definitely reduces the blood glucose spike you might encounter from that meal by roughly 30%. That’s at least what diabetics claim in their strategies to reduce glucose spikes. Seems simple enough, but for us non-diabetics, does it actually reduce carbs absorbed by a meal, or does it just “flatten the curve” (the real definition, not the BS definition) and you will still absorb 100% of those carbs eaten but just more slowly? Or does your microbiome instead getty a larger meal of complex carbs than normal, and is this a negative?
I guess 2 different concepts.
Reducing mTOR with fasting or fasting mimicking diet would help prevent cancer.
Once you have cancer, being in ketosis would stress the existing cancer cells as they prefer glucose as fuel, and then are more susceptible to being treated with chemo or immunotherapy.
Still theoretical at this point. Needs more clinical validation, but ongoing trials in human cancer patients.
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There is no evidence to my understanding that keto diets help in longevity, so I assume they are of less interest to rational people on this forum, and I am not suggesting anyone try this. But they do single out some cellular mechanisms in metabolism so this might help people here with better understanding on how it goes together.
For me, I have a special use case as I had cancer and would prefer not to get it again. Plus I get to join the hypermasculine “gym bro” club who bow hunts their caribou meal after their jujitsu training session and getting “swol”. And in true gym bro form, I had to spell check “caribou”….But seriously, diet or no diet, I’d recommend weights if you can because it really transforms your abilities, movement, and solidity. Not tro get big, but to be more resilient and makes normal tasks easy.
Truthfully, I could not lose weight for the life of me (lack if self control? Even on a longer term med diet — didn’t work personally for me although I loved the food), even with seven day fasts, and keto, low carb, and carnivore worked wonders for me. Not sure it’s the “ultimate diet” but it did work for me. I’m not sure if it is a good longevity diet even for me, but my labs tests and physical abilities have vastly improved since being on it (oh so sorry! I didn’t have a control group so it must not have happened!). So without much care for “proving” anything, I’ll probably continue this until it starts to be a negative, regardless if others are negative.
Good question. I’m not sure. I believe Dom D’Agastino believes the ketones drive something beyond just lower MTOR because he’s using it for the Navy SEALs for “enhanced human performance”. Also these guys are constantly breaking themselves down and then healing so I assume MTOR is pulsed at very least. But just to be clear: this isn’t looking at longevity, but for enhanced performance. It may be that “ the e candle that burns twice as bright” yadda yadda yadda, or it could be that longevity comes from continuous youthful physiology (more enhanced performance means more immune and repair and recycle function, etc. ). Or maybe no relationship.
Also D’Agastino has pointed out that the SEALS are generally older guys (meaning 30-50 — not quite at @desertshores or Dr Life levels)) and they have to perform at optimal levels and fully recover, so its not just a bunch of young 25 year olds who can take more punishment and recover without tuning.
Those are good points, and I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that reducing MRtOR is good (even though rapa and other MTOR suppressors clearly extend longevity and in many cases healthspan as well).
I fast regularly. But I had thought that the recycling/autophagy of damaged/rouge cells was part of the reduction of cancer. (This is why I fast.)
And then separately, I was under the impression that your immune system clears out most of cancers before they become an issue, so if your immune system is strong (and not autoimmune) this should prevent cancer. And Greg Fahy stimulates the immune system in part through HGH which should stimulate MTOR. Which we decided above would have reduced cancer.
So I remain confused.
The topic regarding high/low mTOR/HGH and longevity/healthspan is very confusing indeed. My own understanding of it is that rapamycin allows the body to “defragment” itself, thereby becoming more efficient. The rest of the time, having a high mTOR activity helps with muscle growth and maintainence.
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Interesting article on increased senescent cells due to keto diet
This would be a bit of a concern if true. Seems like probably a well done study, albeit in mice.
The HGH is interesting - and who knows if it is confounded with good by regenerating T cells and the thymus, and then possibly balanced with some bad of stimulating mTOR and IGF-1. However, cycled with Rapa and used in recovery seems like a feasible and smart plan … so long as you don’t end up generating malignancies from stimulating IGF-1.
The other issue is looking at IGF-1 and making sure you aren’t pushing it up. On 2 units/day … mine was a z score of 0.1 … so normal … I’d perhaps feel differently about it if my Z score was +2
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Ill take a look art the study later, thank you for sharing it. I personally pulse fasting (four day fasts every 1.5-2 months) and frequent OMAD. Hopefully this is enough to stave off too much MTOR. Rapa would help as well, although I haven’t yet started it.
Of one of the many things that concerns me about the keto diet, it’s over expressing cortisol. I’m not sure that this is a positive longer term.
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Bicep
#38
They help is several ways including by this study;
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1038/icb.1981.57
Where they suppress bacteria with LPS. If you read Lustgarten’s book, then you would see why this is important. LPS is on all the bad guys that hurt your gut.
DrM
#39
As a physician, most of my colleagues do a double take when I talk about the benefits of a ketogenic diet. What I was taught in medical school and what is still being taught is the food pyramid. I was shocked when I learned about this deception at the end of 2023. It upends all the previous assumptions about eating fats. I have been on the carnivore diet (extreme keto) and a practically zero-carb diet since Feb 2024, and I have never felt better. I am never hungry, and I have lost 25 pounds without trying, and no calorie counting. The ketogenic glow is a real thing, and my thinking has never been more clear.
As a psychiatrist, I am increasingly seeing that ketogenic may have a significant benefit for severe psychiatric conditions, reducing the severe symptoms by 30%. And as mentioned there may be benefits to early intervention in Alzheimer’s disease and other neurologically based conditions. Chris Palmer, MD talks about the benefits seen in his study at Stanford. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUtwr_6sFw4&t=4361s&pp=ygUacHN5Y2hpYXRyaWMga2V0b2dlbmljIGRpZXQ%3D
The ketogenic diet is actively being censored, and Doctors who talk about the benefits are at some risk of being shunned. Here is [Nick Norwitz PhD] discussing the academic integrity concerns as relates to Ketogenic diets.
https://youtu.be/4df03_N_qVA?si=CcyGwp1Ki2DaGsSc
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Doesn’t fat increase growth of cancer
The best cancer prevention diet is to eat green leafy vegetables ,fruits , turmeric, high fiber diet ; foods that are pro apoptosis , and anti angiogenesis
I read you can take meat with calcium carbonate to block the carcinogenesis
The issue with meat is that it increases igf-1 ; IGF-1 is a main cause of cancer
Look at people with Laron syndrome ; they never get cancer due to IGF-1 deficiency
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