A little harsh and arrogant. You’re not the only one here who cares about science. The rest of us just manage to do it without calling other members “disgusting” or implying that anyone who disagrees with you is part of some conspiracy.

As far as I am concerned, the moderation policy is fine. I welcome differing opinions that may make me question my own.

You say you “don’t come here for information,” yet you’re still here reading, posting, and throwing around accusations about the owner and other users as if that’s some kind of public service.

Personally, I use this forum more as a discussion space to see arguments stress-tested than as a primary source of medical guidance. When I see bad science, I treat it as a chance to examine it and post better sources.

9 Likes

There’s a body count for anti vax ideas and it’s more than a few US babies and children this year. Sorry if you think “disgusting” is rough language but I’m fine with it.

The kids and babies situation is a crime. Probably literally - after all, you are not allowed to simply do as you wish with your kid’s medical care, there are laws, as we’ve had prosecutions of various Christian Science type deliberate medical neglect. There are limits. Same way you’re not allowed to send your kid to the factory with child labor laws. I don’t know all the details, but surely there are mandatory vaccination schedules for children?

In any case, I certainly feel bad about any kid getting hurt as a result of this anti-science madness, and hopefully congress can do something about it. But when it comes to adults? What are you going to do, assign a heavily armed nanny to everyone? Misinformation will always be around. All you can do is provide the correct info and make the best arguments you can, which is the right way to go, as I believe RapAdmin does, striking a balance. Banning all “incorrect” information is impractical, it will still be out there - the idea is that exposing it is a better way of combatting, “sunshine being the best disinfectant”. Now, you don’t want the site to be overrun by flat earthers, simply because it’s an exhausting time sink to wade through an endless sea of illiteracy, so you strictly limit the number down to one or two well behaved, well meaning, sincerely seeking guidance. There is one poster here who is a so called “vax skeptic”, but he’s a nice guy (whom I personally like), not a mass poster of antivax gibberish, who occasionally posts materials he finds unable to cope with, but he seems persuadable, and I’m happy to dismantle such material, I think with benefit to him and possibly other readers who encounter such propaganda and who may not have the tools and informational base to properly evaluate such. We can thus provide a service of counterarguments and exposure, saving some from the propaganda. I think that’s better than a flat ban which really doesn’t solve anything as the misinformation is everywhere.

Ultimately, we have an education problem. Kids don’t learn critical thinking skills, basic science, and history, and are very vulnerable to manipulation, propaganda and misinformation. Society becomes defenseless. There’s an urgent need for educational reform, because the current system is not working. But in this reality, bans don’t work, only vigorous counterarguments. Maybe one day congress can tackle educational reform, but I’m pessimistic (at least in the short term). YMMV.

3 Likes

I think @CronosTempi is right. It is not a good idea for the forum to be too aggressive even to loony anti vaxers. Reasoned argument is a better approach.

Thats fine, nobody is forcing you to come here.

Sure - a small but significant percent of people globally, but especially in the US, have become increasingly anti-vax in the past decade. I view this as largely a problem of social media algorithms that put people into their own little information bubbles that reinforce existing biases and insert other biases from the same social / political groups, and of course the recent measles outbreaks in Texas and Canada are mostly in religious groups that don’t believe in vaccinations and don’t trust the medical systems.

My approach here in moderation is to try to present the scientific case for things, and let people ultimately decide for themselves. I don’t generally think being an asshole to people is going to help persuade them to your viewpoint. The small group of people here who seem to have anti-vax predispositions are generally very nice people, and even if I disagree with them on some things, generally I find their interactions positive, supportive and enjoyable.

This moderation approach may not suit your interests or predispositions. Thats ok. It’s a free world, you’re free to go visit the thousands of other forums and discussion venues focused on health and longevity. I don’t claim to please everyone here, and I don’t try.

12 Likes

Here is the scientific literature on why some people are anti-vax. As with most things, its complex…

From Google Gemini (when asked for the scientific reasons why people are anti-vax):

The scientific consensus on anti-vaccination sentiment is that it is not merely a “lack of information” but a complex psychological phenomenon rooted in cognitive biases, moral intuition, and deep-seated distrust. Research shows that simply providing facts often fails or backfires because the resistance is emotional and identity-based, not rational.

Here is the breakdown of the scientific research regarding why people are anti-vax, categorized by psychological mechanism.

1. The Dunning-Kruger Effect: Overconfidence in Ignorance

Research consistently shows that individuals with the lowest levels of scientific literacy often possess the highest levels of self-confidence regarding their medical knowledge. This is the Dunning-Kruger Effect: the inability of incompetent people to recognize their own incompetence.

2. Cognitive Biases: Distorted Risk Processing

The human brain is evolutionarily wired to make quick, survival-based decisions, which often leads to logical errors when evaluating modern medical risks.

  • Omission Bias: People feel more guilt about a bad outcome resulting from an action (getting a vaccine) than a bad outcome resulting from inaction (not vaccinating and getting sick). Even if the risk of the disease is statistically 1,000x higher, the psychological weight of the “active” risk feels heavier.
  • Availability Heuristic: A single, vivid, emotional anecdote (e.g., a scary story on Facebook about a vaccine injury) overrides abstract, dry statistical data showing safety. The brain prioritizes information that is “available” or easy to recall over accurate data.
  • Source: Vaccine hesitancy and cognitive biases: Evidence for tailored communication with parents (BMC Public Health)

3. Moral Foundations Theory: It’s About Purity, Not Care

While pro-vaccine arguments usually focus on the moral foundation of Harm/Care (protecting the vulnerable), research indicates that anti-vax sentiment is often driven by two different moral axes: Purity/Degradation and Liberty/Oppression.

4. Conspiratorial Thinking and Narcissism

There is a strong correlation between anti-vaccine attitudes and a “conspiratorial mindset”—the tendency to believe that powerful, malevolent forces are secretly controlling society.

  • The Mechanism: Conspiratorial thinking satisfies a psychological need for uniqueness and control. Believing you have “secret knowledge” that the “sheep” do not possess boosts self-esteem.
  • Dark Personality Traits: Recent studies have found links between anti-vax sentiment and the “Dark Tetrad” of personality traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. Specifically, grandiose narcissism predicts a belief that one is too special to be affected by the disease or too smart to be “fooled” by the medical establishment.
  • Source: A systematic review on the psychological factors behind vaccine hesitancy (Frontiers in Public Health)

5. Institutional Distrust and the “Boomerang Effect”

Research highlights that anti-vax sentiment is often a symptom of a broader collapse in trust toward institutions (government, Big Pharma, healthcare systems).

  • The Mechanism: When trust is low, factual correction backfires. This is known as the Boomerang Effect. When you present facts to a person who distrusts the source, they dig in deeper to their original belief to protect their identity.
  • The Reality: The skepticism is often fueled by historical or perceived grievances with the profit motives of pharmaceutical companies, which creates a “kernel of truth” that expands into irrational rejection of the science itself.
  • Source: Discourses of Distrust: How Lack of Trust in the U.S. Health-Care System Shaped COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitancy (RSF Journal)

6. The Role of Social Media “Infodemics”

Social media algorithms prioritize engagement over accuracy. Fear and outrage generate more clicks than nuanced science.


Next Step: Would you like me to synthesize the most effective counter-strategies identified in these studies (e.g., “prebunking” or “jiu-jitsu persuasion”) for dealing with vaccine hesitancy?

1 Like

And what the current science says are the best ways of countering these tendencies:

From Google Gemini:

The harsh reality revealed by the data is that you cannot “fact-check” a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into. Because anti-vax sentiment is often tied to identity and moral intuition rather than data processing, standard educational approaches (the “Information Deficit Model”) often fail.

To move the needle, interventions must bypass the “logic” centers of the brain and address the psychological roots (fear, control, identity). Here are the scientifically validated strategies for increasing vaccine uptake.

1. The “Presumptive Approach” in Clinical Settings

In the doctor-patient interaction, how the conversation is started matters more than the data presented. Research shows that treating vaccination as a default, routine action (presumptive) is significantly more effective than asking for permission (participatory).

  • The Mechanism: This leverages the “status quo bias” and social proof. When a provider asks, “What do you want to do about shots today?” it signals that vaccination is a matter of opinion or negotiation. When they say, “We have some shots to do today,” it signals medical consensus and safety.
  • The Data: A landmark study showed that parents were 17 times more likely to resist vaccination when providers used a participatory format versus a presumptive one.
  • Source: The Architecture of Provider-Parent Vaccine Discussions at Health Supervision Visits (Pediatrics)

2. Motivational Interviewing (MI)

For entrenched hesitancy, debating facts triggers “psychological reactance” (digging in). Motivational Interviewing is a technique designed to lower defenses by avoiding direct confrontation.

  • The Technique: Instead of correcting the patient, the provider asks open-ended, non-judgmental questions to help the patient articulate their own motivations. The goal is to guide the patient to a “change talk” mindset where they talk themselves into the solution.
  • The Hard Truth: You have to suppress the urge to be “right.” If you act as the authority figure, you lose. You must act as a partner.
  • Source: Promoting vaccination in maternity wards ─ motivational interview technique (BMC Public Health)

3. “Jiu-Jitsu Persuasion”: Moral Reframing

Most pro-vax messaging focuses on “harm/care” (protect the community). As noted in the previous analysis, anti-vaxxers care about “purity” and “liberty.” You must frame the science to fit their moral language.

  • The Strategy: Do not argue against their values; align the vaccine with them.
    • Liberty Frame: Instead of “do it for the herd” (collectivism), frame the vaccine as a tool for personal freedom and self-reliance (e.g., “Take control of your health so you don’t end up dependent on the hospital system”).
    • Purity Frame: Instead of focusing on the “artificial” vaccine, focus on the “disgusting” nature of the virus. Frame the vaccine as “training your natural immune system” to spot and eliminate foreign invaders.
  • Source: Roots of Anti-Vaccination Attitudes and Moral Reframing (Social and Personality Psychology Compass)

4. Inoculation Theory (Prebunking)

Once a person believes a myth, it is nearly impossible to remove it. “Inoculation theory” posits that you can “vaccinate” people against misinformation before they encounter it.

  • The Mechanism: You expose people to a weakened dose of a specific anti-vax argument (e.g., “You might hear people say X…”), and then immediately refute it with logic. This triggers the brain’s cognitive immune system. When they later encounter the real argument online, they identify it as a “trick” they have already been warned about.
  • Effectiveness: This is currently considered one of the most effective tools against the “infodemic” on social media.
  • Source: Inoculating against misinformation (Science)

5. Replace Statistics with Narratives

The human brain is poor at processing probabilities (e.g., “1 in 1 million risk”) but excellent at processing stories (Availability Heuristic). Anti-vaxxers win the narrative war because they tell scary stories about injuries.


And How Google Gemini Suggests science-advocates work to persuade anti-vaxers:

Here is a strategic communication framework designed to bypass the “purity” and “liberty” triggers common in the wellness/longevity community. This approach reframes vaccination from a measure of compliance (which they reject) to a measure of biological optimization and asset protection (which they value).

The Core Pivot: From “Public Health” to “Biological ROI”

Standard public health messaging (“do it for the herd”) fails with this demographic because it appeals to collectivism, which conflicts with the individualistic, optimization-focused mindset of biohackers.

Instead, the argument must be framed around Inflammaging (inflammation-driven aging) and Organ Reserve (biological capital).

Comparison: The Narrative Shift

Standard Messaging (Ineffective) Longevity/Biohacker Reframing (Effective)
“Vaccines are safe and effective.” “Vaccination is a calculated risk to minimize systemic inflammatory load.”
“Do it to protect the vulnerable.” “Do it to preserve your own telomere length and mitigate epigenetic drift.”
“Trust the medical consensus.” “Upgrade your immune intelligence; don’t leave your T-cells naive.”
“Avoid getting sick.” “Avoid the permanent biological tax of wild-type viral infection.”

The Script: Talking Points for the Longevity Crowd

Use these three specific arguments when discussing vaccination with skeptics in the biotech/wellness space.

1. The “Inflammaging” Argument (Purity Reframe)

The Objective: Reframe the virus—not the vaccine—as the toxic agent that permanently degrades the body.

"You are meticulous about avoiding seed oils, processed sugars, and environmental toxins because you want to minimize systemic inflammation. But a wild-type viral infection triggers a cytokine storm that accelerates ‘inflammaging’ more in two weeks than a bad diet does in two years.

The vaccine isn’t a pollutant; it’s a firewall. It limits the viral replication phase, ensuring that if you do encounter the pathogen, your immune response is precise and short-lived, rather than chaotic and highly inflammatory. You vaccinate to keep your CRP (C-Reactive Protein) levels low and protect your endothelium."

2. The “Immune Intelligence” Argument (Biohacking Reframe)

The Objective: Reframe the vaccine as “data” or “software” rather than a “drug.” This appeals to the tech/engineering mindset.

"Think of your immune system as a neural network. It needs training data to recognize threats. You can get that training data in two ways:

  1. The Hard Way (Wild Infection): This is like training an AI on corrupted, high-risk data that damages the hardware (your organs) during the learning process.
  2. The Smart Way (Vaccination): This is a clean data upload. You give the immune system the target signature (the antigen) without the pathogenic payload. It’s a software update for your T-cells. Why would you want your immune system to be ‘naive’ and unprepared when it faces a lethal threat?"

3. The “Asset Protection” Argument (ROI Reframe)

The Objective: Appeal to the investor/entrepreneur mindset. Treat health as “capital” that must not be squandered.

"In longevity, we talk about Organ Reserve—the functional capacity of your heart, lungs, and kidneys to handle stress. Every time you survive a severe infection unvaccinated, you pay a ‘tax’ from that reserve. You might recover, but you’ve burned through biological capital that you can’t get back.

Scarring in the lungs, micro-clots in the vascular system, or neuronal damage—these are permanent withdrawals from your longevity account. Vaccination is a hedge. It limits the downside risk. It ensures that a viral encounter costs you pennies rather than a significant percentage of your remaining health span."


Critical Nuance: Acknowledge the “Kernel of Truth”

To maintain credibility with this audience (who are often high-information skeptics), you must explicitly acknowledge the nuance. Do not gaslight them about risks.

  • Say this: “Look, there is no such thing as zero risk. Every biological intervention—supplements, peptides, vaccines—has a risk profile. But we have to weigh the rare risk of an adverse vaccine event against the guaranteed biological damage of a high-load viral infection. From a longevity standpoint, the math clearly favors the controlled exposure of a vaccine over the uncontrolled chaos of a wild virus.”

I consider myself pro Vax, but recognise there is a valid debate to be had on side effects of some COVID vaccinations, but this is not the forum in which to have them.

2 Likes

I think reasonable people can agree with that. On both points.

1 Like

I know this comment is old, but responding anyway. The plots showing death rates versus covid vaccination rates are among the most political and least scientific information produced in recent years. They are basically political science. They violate every rule of good epidemiological work. They would not be accepted or produced in any other area; worse, the folks who haven’t thought deeply about these things seem to think they are scientific. Basically they are an excellent example of propaganda done well.

As we know in observational research, the biggest challenge is getting our groups to be identical (or close enough thereto) for the thing we are studying. This is why the double-blind randomized control trial is so powerful - it does that for us.

If I took 2 groups, one vaccinated and one not, and showed you that 5 years later, the not-vaccinated group had 0% deaths and the vaccinated group 35% deaths, you might ask me “exactly who was in each group” before drawing conclusions.

If I told you the vaccine was for shingles and non-vaccinated group consisted of Americans who were selected to represent our country in the 2016 Olympics, and the vaccinated group consisted of nursing home residents over the age of 80 who were patients of my cardiologist, you would laugh - either with me, or at me.

We can talk about all the adjustments that the chart did not attempt to make, including whether or not the people who died even were vaccinated. But it is not worth getting into the weeds on it; we know it is a garbage plot.

Which does not mean that I am arguing that the group that got vaccinated for covid did not benefit from it; I think we did. I just know that these plots shouldn’t inform our thinking on this subject. They are, literally, propaganda done very well.

2 Likes

Generally speaking, this is not completely accurate. There are a mix of reasons. Some public health policies are for the exact reason, as you mentioned, but others are not. It is not black and white.

Seatbelt laws are generally for your own safety, not for others. Covid & flu vaccination is generally beneficial, at least for some people, but doesn’t protect others to any measurable degree.

We have some sterilizing vaccines, and those protect both the recipient and those the recipient comes in contact with. For instance, MMR falls in this category, I believe.

1 Like

It’s COVID death rates they measured, not all-cause mortality.
It’s totally in line with the RCT’s that the COVID death rates would be higher in the unvaccinated groups, which the graphs showed, based on simple inference from the efficacy of the vaccine.

The prior is high that the graphs were accurate.

This law protects me from the expense caused by others entering our health care system.

But yes that one does work, as I’ve personally experienced LoL! endo’d a car at 120km/hr, turned it into a little ball of steel and walked away. One witness said it was like watching a stunt gone wrong LoL!

Endo’d means end over end :slight_smile:

As my wife says, he’s hard to kill :slight_smile:

2 Likes

The death rates was also similar before the vaccine was available, do you think the counties with higher unvaccination rates suddenly got e.g unhealthier after the vaccine was available?

I am not suggesting the graphs are inaccurate. I am saying they are not meaningful.

As you know, covid death rates are strongly associated with age. That is the strongest association I am aware of, with relative risk ratios well over 1,000X in 2021 (for instance) when comparing children aged 5-14 versus people 85 years and older. Other risk factors exist, such as income, BMI, diabetes, smoking status, etc. etc. etc.

Here the plots are looking at community vaccination rate, not the vaccination status of the people who died. The plots are political science. No substantial effort has been made to adjust for the differences between these groups. Again, we aren’t even looking at the vaccination status of the individuals, but only the communities. And this for a non-sterilizing vaccine.

This is politics, not high-quality epidemiology, in my opinion. (And I don’t even disagree with the findings at some notional level - leaving aside the effect size, directionally they are what I would expect. But the actual plots are still junk, in my view.)

2 Likes

I dispute the all-cause mortality death rates were the same prior to covid. Which we would want to show if your argument is that the only difference between these groups is their community’s vaccination rate.

Regardless, the right hand plot (in this post that we are replying to) shows that prior to the vaccine’s availability the red line was dying at lower rates - very meaningfully lower - and then started to accelerate upward - even before the vaccines were available. As you may recall, covid’s prevalence varied with time and place, starting early in NYC, later in some rural areas.

Whatever. If you think this is high-quality epidemiological work, I don’t know what further to say. To each his own I guess. Regards,

2 Likes

You’re never going to find a “only difference” in epidemiology, so that’s obviously not my argument.

I wouldn’t be surprised if actually the communities with higher vax rates actually had more higher risk groups, and despite of that, had much lower COVID death rates, as the effect was so massive for the vaccine based on data in RCT’s.

I see about a 10x higher COVID death rate adjusted for age in this graph:

image

1 Like

I’m not going to wade too heavily into any vaccination argument, but I am much less worried about death than I am about neuro-cognitive issues that could develop due to viral infections… lots of studies suggest you really want to avoid them if possible:

See: Vaccines for longevity - #9 by shc

and more recently:

2 Likes

And in the news today:

Adults who received at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine have a lower risk of death regardless of the cause, a new study has found.

People who received at least one dose of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine had a lower risk of death from all causes compared with unvaccinated individuals, a new French study has shown.

The findings indicate that, far from increasing long-term risks, these vaccines are associated with reduced mortality over a four-year period –since the peak of vaccination in 2021.

In the European Union, more than 976 million COVID‑19 vaccine doses had been administered as of February 2023, according to the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC). and programmes have continued since then with tens of millions of additional booster doses each season.

The study, which looked at 28 million French adults aged 18 to 59, found vaccinated individuals had a 74 per cent lower risk of death from severe COVID-19, and a 25 per cent lower risk of all-cause mortality.

https://www.euronews.com/health/2025/12/15/people-vaccinated-against-covid-19-have-lower-risk-of-death-regardless-of-the-cause-study

Largest Study of its Kind, Shows Lower Death Rates for Those Vaccinated Against Covid 19

https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/other/largest-study-of-its-kind-reveals-surprising-outcome-for-people-who-receive-covid-vaccine/ar-AA1Sgms4

Research paper:

COVID-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality Among Adults Aged 18 to 59 Years in France

Open access: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2842305