#21

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Links:.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joim.12496

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#22

References:

  1. Vitamin D. Zero relevance.
  2. Sunlight exposure to household dust. Zero relevance.
  3. MDPI. Association study.
  4. Mice study. Vitamin D, zero relevance again.
  5. Vitamin D. Zero relevance.
  6. Vitiligo cosmetic treatment. Zero generalization.
  7. Vitamin D. Zero relevance.
  8. Vitamin D. Zero relevance.
  9. Vitamin D. Zero relevance.
  10. Light. Zero relevance.
  11. Vitamin D probably. Zero relevance.
  12. Vitamin D. Zero relevance.
  13. Mechanistic speculation, association study.
  14. Light. Zero relevance.
  15. Vitamin D. Zero relevance.
  16. Association study.

The only reason people willingly age their skin and increase their risk of skin cancer is because they like the warmth and the light, and they want to tan. Not because they read some association study.

It’s a whole bunch of nothing for irradiation from the nuclear fusion reactor, to increase skin aging and risk of skin cancer.

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#23

It’s a whole bunch of nothing for irradiation from the nuclear fusion reactor

This is ridiculous hyperbole. What’s next, oxygen is a poisonous gas? There simply isn’t an RCT to support every decision we have to make. And when every single association regarding sun exposure and CVD mortality (not to mention other diseases and all-cause mortality) points in the same direction, I’m going to “do as the Romans do” until proven otherwise.

Having a nice tan makes you not look sickly. Getting sun makes you not depressed. As long as you don’t burn and use sunscreen on face and neck, it’s a no brainer.

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#24

No it does not point in the same direction and the negative evidence is much higher quality.

The causal evidence shows skin aging and increased risk for skin cancer.

To expose yourself to irradiation from the nuclear fusion reactor because of association studies despite this doesn’t make sense.

It’s interesting the proponents keep linking vitamin D studies as if solar irradiation is the only way to get vitamin D. What’s going on in their brain?? How many times do they have to hear that it has ZERO relevance to this topic until they finally get it?

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#25

The problem is that vitamin D supplementation doesn’t seem to impact all cause mortality, yet there’s clearly a strong association between vitamin D levels (and by proxy sun exposure) and cardiovascular health.

There’s evidence that low vitamin D doesn’t causally impact CVD (see this MR study, for example), which suggests that the association between vitamin D and cardiovascular health could be due to some other factor induced by sunlight (e.g nitric oxide). I’ve already tried to make this point to you in another thread, so I’m not going to pursue it further.

At any rate, yes, sunlight increase skin cancer risk, but the absolute risk of dying from skin cancer is very small compared to the absolute risk of dying from CVD.

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#26

It causes skin aging and wrinkles too.

#27

It also surprised me to know the professor said those has skin cancer also the healthiest, longest living people…

Her idea is the sun exposure has benefits on all human internal organs through skin receptors, so the damage on skin level but benefit on all human body level, therefore, the benefit outweighs the damage…

To be or not to be, to be a long living centenarian with melanoma, or better looking old guys without, that is the question…

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#28

That sounds like an obvious case of reverse causation if true. The healthiest, longest living people are unsurprisingly not maimed, stuck inside a retirement home, and are able to go outside, and have radiation exposure for a long time.

The lengths people will go to justify radiation from the nuclear fusion reactor.
Mechanistic speculation is even worse than an association study, just scientific hubris.

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#29

Have you ever noticed how Asian women look so young with silky smooth skin? They avoid the sun like the plague. They pull out their UV protection umbrellas when they go outside. Coincidence?

They also love skin treatments like HIFU and the rest, but their skin is amazing.

Those elderly I know who spent a long time in the sun when they were young curse their crocodile like skin.

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#30

It is with much enjoyment to watch you do a really decent job of knocking down what we know and don’t know and being the ultimate skeptic. Note to self … don’t get in a disagreement with @AnUser

I would simply point out that there is a somewhat consistent association in this space with better health outcomes, which doesn’t mean causation. It would also be an error to think the only thing beneficial occurring with sun exposure is activation of ingested dietary vitamin D … which you are quite correct - just take D3.

Every time we think we know the active ingredient to what is happening and what is important (like with Vitamin D) there is often more to the story.

I really liked the discussion on @Joseph_Lavelle podcast, I believe episode 105 with Professor Prue Hart. It seemed to be a sensible middle ground between hours in the sun vs. no sun at all.

@AnUser … not going to argue … cause I know you’ll outlast me!

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#31

It saddens me that people are so removed from the natural world and its rhythms. Generally this discussion is focusing on Caucasian North Americans. Who most likely get little sunshine benefits due to living/working indoors and the low sunshine winter months. Yet spring arrives and normally (normal being what our evolutionary history would suggest) we GRADUALLY build up a protective tan. When you prevent this action by sunscreen - well now you are pretty vulnerable to sunburn. Getting Vit D naturally means you get the benefit of the production of proteins that store Vit d for those low light winter months. Wacker, M., & Holick, M. F. (2013). Sunlight and Vitamin D: A global perspective for health. Dermato-endocrinology , 5 (1), 51-108.

Having lighter skin color is a major risk factor for melanoma. Overall, the lifetime risk of getting melanoma is about 3% (1 in 33) for White people, 0.1% (1 in 1,000) for Black people, and 0.5% (1 in 200) for Hispanic people. The Black and Hispanic population can receive more sunshine safely given the melanin in their skin and it is necessary to receive more sun to get natural amounts of vit d. Melanoma Skin Cancer Statistics | American Cancer Society

It certainly is a valid discussion to consider what is optimal sun exposure in terms of lifestyle and health. It makes sense for some folks to be hyper-vigilant about that exposure. It also makes sense to see commonly prescribed health advice as not applying very well to the individual.

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#32

You are less likely to get melanoma. More likely to get the other, inconsequential one.

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#33

Un, droopling brow lines, deep marionette lines, wide crows feets, creases and wrinkles all over my face instead, right?

How many years more can i live if i am willing to wear a look like that?

Asian ladies look young for they always avoid sun exposure, use umbrella, sun screens, etc.

Probably i can cover my face up, just expose my upper torso? Still need a not too old looking face to attract ladies. i don’t mind my body full of wrinkles and dark spots…

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#34

To understand @AnUser you have to keep in mind the ancient philosophers and the primitive lizard brain. In terms of the sunshine argument, I would quote this:

Socrates continues: “Suppose… that someone should drag him… by force, up the rough ascent, the steep way up, and never stop until he could drag him out into the light of the sun.”[2] The prisoner would be angry and in pain, and this would only worsen when the radiant light of the sun overwhelms his eyes and blinds him.[2]

“Slowly, his eyes adjust to the light of the sun. First he can see only shadows. Gradually he can see the reflections of people and things in water and then later see the people and things themselves. Eventually, he is able to look at the stars and moon at night until finally he can look upon the sun itself (516a).”[2] Only after he can look straight at the sun “is he able to reason about it” and what it is."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave

Also remember, in any argument, that @AnUser always has his Bible close at hand…

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240709-seven-ways-to-spot-a-bad-argument

Oh, and to keep the thread on track, this summarizes the reasonable approach:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/06/sun-exposure-health-benefits/678205/

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#35

Why would evidence lower on the evidence hiearchy supersede or weaken evidence higher up? That’s the logical error and is consistent with all of my other positions.

We have causal evidence for apoB or LDL causing disease, so all of the relative dogshit association studies are irrelevant.

We have causal evidence for sun exposure causing aging and disease, so all of the association studies are irrelevant as well.

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#36

The best answers in life are often neither black or white but somewhere in the middle. Being able to balance and prioritize is a critical skill. Sunshine feels healthy, yet we know that it can cause damage.So get some but not too much.

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#37

Or get sunlight but avoid UV.
Have normal HDL but low LDL.
Have normal/high testosterone but low DHT.

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#38

That’s the worst measurement of healthfulness.
Something can feel healthy but still not be healthy. Many things doesn’t feel like anything.

You can also sit in the shade and enjoy the light you see.

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#39

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe @AnUser has admitted to being on the autism spectrum. That is fine with me. I have a grandson who is autistic and very smart.
People on the autism spectrum often don’t understand humor or sarcasm.
To them, it is also okay to criticize someone.
An example I believe I posted before;

Autism person: “That is an ugly dress you have on.”

Person: “Why did you say that? That was rude.”

Autism person: “If I was wearing something ugly, I would want you to tell me.”

I never hold a grudge.

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#40

No, that was a joke.

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