And yet 2.5 mg dutasteride has an almost identical side effect profile to 0.5 mg. I just don’t see how there’s any debate: you don’t need DHT as an adult. There’s just no evidence of even completely nuked DHT levels causing any problems. Just more hair, a healthier prostate, and possibly better skin. Not to mention higher testosterone.

4 Likes

I know some worship DHT blockers like a new religion. But it’s not so simple. Neither finasteride nor dutasteride actually prevents prostate cancer, and fully nuking DHT can lead to unintended consequences. There is certainly more research needed. But keeping hair and virility can be attained with far less possibly consequential methods.

Optimal androgen levels are a biomarker for survival because older men with midrange levels of T and DHT had the lowest death rates from any cause, whereas those with higher DHT had lower IHD mortality.

Among 1032 men followed for a median of 9 years, 436 incident CVD events and 777 deaths occurred. In models adjusted for cardiovascular risk factors, total T and cFT were not associated with incident CVD or all-cause mortality, whereas DHT and calculated free DHT had curvilinear associations with incident CVD (P < .002 and P = .04, respectively) and all-cause mortality (P < .001 for both).

Conclusions:

In a cohort of elderly men, DHT and calculated free DHT were associated with incident CVD and all-cause mortality.

Among older men, higher levels of DHT were inversely associated with insulin resistance and risk of diabetes over the ensuing 10 years, whereas levels of T were not.

Men with lower baseline DHT concentrations had higher risk for all-cause mortality (median for Q1 vs. Q5, 0.69 vs. 2.45 nmol/L; adjusted HR, 1.19 [CI, 1.08 to 1.30]) and CVD mortality (adjusted HR, 1.29 [CI, 1.03 to 1.61]), and risk also increased with DHT concentrations above 2.45 nmol/L. Men with DHT concentrations below 0.59 nmol/L had increased risk for incident CVD events.

DHT is negatively associated with long-term prostate cancer death regardless of clinical presentation at time of inclusion.

this one did not reach statistical significance but still shows a similar direction:

Free testosterone or DHT was calculated from total testosterone or total DHT, sex hormone-binding globulin, and albumin. We used Cox regression to estimate relative risks of HF after adjustment for potential confounders. In 1061 men (aged 76±5 years) followed for a median of 9.6 years, there were 368 HF events. After adjustment, lower calculated free testosterone was significantly associated with higher risk of HF (hazard ratio [HR], 1.14 [95% CI, 1.01-1.28]). Risk estimates for total testosterone (HR, 1.12 [95% CI, 0.99-1.26]), total DHT (HR, 1.10 [95% CI, 0.97-1.24]), calculated free dihydrotestosterone (HR, 1.09 [95% CI, 0.97-1.23]), and sex hormone-binding globulin (HR, 1.07 [95% CI, 0.95-1.21]) were directionally similar but not statistically significant.

In older men, DHT was inversely associated with hip fracture risk and SHBG was positively associated with hip fracture risk, while T was not.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0026049520302638

Lower T has been associated with CVD events and all-cause mortality. Lower DHT concentrations are associated with higher mortality from ischemic heart disease. However, interventional studies of T supplementation have not been powered for the outcome of CVD events or mortality. Therefore, while reduced T and DHT are robust biomarkers for heart disease and related mortality, additional studies are required to determine causality and assess the role of T therapy in older men without proven androgen deficiency.

4 Likes

I know some worship DHT blockers like a new religion.

If something works, why would I not love it?

But it’s not so simple. Neither finasteride nor dutasteride actually prevents prostate cancer

They do, although it isn’t enough to affect acm.

In the updated analysis, men taking finasteride had a 30 percent decrease in the relative risk of developing prostate cancer compared with men who took a placebo: 10.5 percent of men in the finasteride group were diagnosed with prostate cancer versus 14.9 percent of men in the placebo group. This reduction in risk was explained solely by the prevention of low-grade cancers—those with a Gleason score of 6 or less—which present little health risk but, nonetheless, are often treated with radical surgery or radiation. The risk of such cancers was 43 percent lower in the finasteride group than the placebo group.
The men who took finasteride were more likely to be diagnosed with high-grade cancer compared with the men who took a placebo: 3.5 percent of all men in the finasteride group versus 3.0 percent of all men in the placebo group, a relative increase of about 17 percent.
The survival rates at 15 years were very similar between the two groups: 78.0 percent in the finasteride group versus 78.2 percent in the placebo group. When the researchers looked specifically at men who had been diagnosed with prostate cancer, the survival rates for individuals diagnosed with prostate cancer were also very similar between the two groups.

Finasteride for Prostate Cancer Prevention - NCI

But keeping hair and virility can be attained with far less possibly consequential methods.

Without using a 5ari, hair cannot be maintained in balding men. Unless you are 80+ and losing hair from senescent alopecia in which case minoxidil alone may suffice.

Optimal androgen levels are a biomarker for survival because older men with midrange levels of T and DHT had the lowest death rates from any cause, whereas those with higher DHT had lower IHD mortality.

Low testosterone is likely a consequence of frailty and DHT and testosterone are linearly linked. The study makes no mention of whether this association was still maintained for men with high testosterone but low DHT (due to genetic factors).

Among 1032 men followed for a median of 9 years, 436 incident CVD events and 777 deaths occurred. In models adjusted for cardiovascular risk factors, total T and cFT were not associated with incident CVD or all-cause mortality, whereas DHT and calculated free DHT had curvilinear associations with incident CVD (P < .002 and P = .04, respectively) and all-cause mortality (P < .001 for both).

Interestingly enough, other studies show that balding is highly correlated with heart disease.

Results showed that men who had lost the majority of their hair had a 32% increased risk of developing coronary artery disease, compared to their peers who maintained a full head of hair.
When the analysis was restricted to men under the age of 55-60, a comparable pattern was revealed. Bald or extensively balding males had a 44% increased probability to develop coronary artery disease.
After examining the other 3 reports, which compared the heart health of men who were bald or balding with those who were not, the experts saw similar results.
The team found that balding men had a 70% higher risk of having heart disease, while those in younger age groups had a 84% elevated chance.

Baldness Linked To Higher Risk Of Coronary Heart Disease

As for:

Among older men, higher levels of DHT were inversely associated with insulin resistance and risk of diabetes over the ensuing 10 years, whereas levels of T were not.

Other observational trials point to finasteride lowering both cholesterol and glucose levels. Results were inconsistent for cvd.

Similarly, LDL-C levels were lower in finasteride users except for those that were neither diagnosed with high cholesterol nor were taking cholesterol-lowering agents (P = 0.074, Table 2).

From the different interaction variables, finasteride consumption was associated with a reduction in blood glucose in those subjects diagnosed with liver condition (P = 0.0418), diagnosed with diabetes, and currently taking antidiabetic medications (P = 0.0033), and diagnosed with high blood cholesterol but not currently taking cholesterol-lowering medications (P = 0.0101).

Finasteride delays atherosclerosis progression in mice and is associated with a reduction in plasma cholesterol in men - ScienceDirect

And for this observational study

Lower T has been associated with CVD events and all-cause mortality. Lower DHT concentrations are associated with higher mortality from ischemic heart disease.

There were actual trials looking into testosterone supplementation

Association studies between testosterone and CVD risk suggest that low levels of endogenous testosterone in men are associated with greater odds of CVD outcomes. However, the effect of exogenous testosterone on CVD risk and atherosclerosis remains elusive: On one hand, the Cardiovascular Testosterone Trial failed to observe alterations in the intima-media thickness of older (+60) cis men with low or low-normal serum testosterone, while a second study with comparable demographics observed an increase in plaque volume (6, 68).

Your observational studies cannot establish a connection between DHT and heart disease or all-cause mortality due to the obvious factor of testosterone. In the studies you posted, there was no mention of low DHT being a risk factor even in men with normal or high levels of testosterone while in mine, there are populations that artificially suppress their DHT but not their testosterone with a neutral or even positive effect on health markers.

2 Likes

If you want to talk about a religion…there are whole websites and groups dedicated to demonizing 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors based purely on anecdotal evidence.
https://www.pfsfoundation.org/
So yes there are some of us that actually follow the science not mass hysteria and want to push back against the anti-science freaks.

DHT is biomarker for testosterone because that its precursor. You cannot use a study that uses testosterone levels as surrogate for effects of low DHT levels. You posted several studies that basically said lower testosterone is BAD. Yes we all know that. And when testosterone is low so will DHT. Yes, obviously.

However, 5 alpha-Reductase inhibitors DO NOT DECREASE TESTOSTERONE. They can actually INCREASE IT, since testosterone is a substrate for DHT.

Case in point my latest testosterone level was 847 ng/dL at age 51 without any exogenous sources. I have been on finasteride 1 mg for years. No I don’t bother measuring my DHT because it wouldn’t tell me anything useful, but my hair thinning stopped and my urinary flow has improved tremendously since I started taking finasteride.

Do any of studies that you posted regarding low T apply to me even though I am on 5ARI ?

Regarding prostate cancer and 5ARIs…

One man in nine will receive a diagnosis of prostate cancer during his lifetime. We previously reported the results of the Prostate Cancer Prevention Trial, in which 18,882 men were randomly assigned to receive finasteride or placebo for 7 years. The study’s primary end point — the prevalence of prostate cancer during the 7 years of the trial — was met: the relative risk of prostate cancer with finasteride was 24.8% lower than the risk with placebo.1 Paradoxically, the risk of high-grade cancer (Gleason score of 7 to 10) was higher with finasteride, a finding that led to recommendations against the use of finasteride for the prevention of prostate cancer. Subsequent trials showed that finasteride improved detection of prostate cancer and high-grade prostate cancer by improving the performance characteristics of the prostate-specific antigen (PSA) test, digital rectal examination, and the prostate biopsy. These biases could explain the paradox, but the questions of whether the greater number of high-grade prostate cancers could have led to diminished survival or to an increase in prostate cancer mortality persisted.2 In 2013, we addressed the first of these questions, finding similar survival rates in the two treatment groups of the Prostate Cancer Prevention Trial.3

4 Likes

No one is “nuking” anything. Let’s not use hyperboles to make a point.
Finasteride even at high doses can only achieve 72% reduction in DHT. Dutasteride can go much higher but most people use finasteride for hair loss since it has FDA indication for alopecia.

The effects of finasteride on scalp skin and serum androgen levels in men with androgenetic alopecia

L Drake 1, M Hordinsky, V Fiedler, J Swinehart, W P Unger, P C Cotterill, D M Thiboutot, N Lowe, C Jacobson, D Whiting, S Stieglitz, S J Kraus, E I Griffin, D Weiss, P Carrington, C Gencheff, G W Cole, D M Pariser, E S Epstein, W Tanaka, A Dallob, K Vandormael, L Geissler, J Waldstreicher

Affiliations Expand

  • PMID: 10495374

Abstract

Background: Data suggest that androgenetic alopecia is a process dependent on dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and type 2 5alpha-reductase. Finasteride is a type 2 5alpha-reductase inhibitor that has been shown to slow further hair loss and improve hair growth in men with androgenetic alopecia.

Objective: We attempted to determine the effect of finasteride on scalp skin and serum androgens.

Methods: Men with androgenetic alopecia (N = 249) underwent scalp biopsies before and after receiving 0.01, 0.05, 0.2, 1, or 5 mg daily of finasteride or placebo for 42 days.

Results: Scalp skin DHT levels declined significantly by 13.0% with placebo and by 14.9%, 61.6%, 56. 5%, 64.1%, and 69.4% with 0.01, 0.05, 0.2, 1, and 5 mg doses of finasteride, respectively. Serum DHT levels declined significantly (P <.001) by 49.5%, 68.6%, 71.4%, and 72.2% in the 0.05, 0.2, 1, and 5 mg finasteride treatment groups, respectively.

Conclusion: In this study, doses of finasteride as low as 0.2 mg per day maximally decreased both scalp skin and serum DHT levels. These data support the rationale used to conduct clinical trials in men with male pattern hair loss at doses of finasteride between 0.2 and 5 mg.

2 Likes

If fin reduces prostate cancer, and prostate cancer is a high rate cause of death in men, and the increase in severity thing is detection bias, why doesn’t it show up in mortality?

Because prostate cancers only make up 6% of all cancer deaths and cancer deaths make up 18% of all deaths, so only 1% of all deaths are due to prostate cancer. Obviously women don’t die from prostate cancer but even if you quadruple the incidence to 4% of all male deaths, that would still not be easily detectable in a randomized, placebo-controlled trial.

FastStats - Leading Causes of Death
Prostate cancer cases and deaths U.S. 2024 | Statista

5 Likes

Precisely, prostate cancer is a slow progressing cancer - most men die from other causes before prostate cancer demise. If a man is planning to live over a hundred he is way more likely to face prostate cancer.

Technically there was a 25% reduction in prostate cancer death with 5AR but it wasn’t statistically significant due low deaths in general in study. As more men live past a 100, I imagine we would see more prostate cancer deaths and this difference can become pronounced.

With 296,842 person-years of follow-up and a median follow-up of 18.4 years, of 9423 men randomized to finasteride, there were 3048 deaths of which 42 were due to prostate cancer; of 9457 randomized to placebo, there were 2979 deaths, 56 due to prostate cancer. With the small number of deaths due to prostate cancer, the 25% lower risk of death from prostate cancer with finasteride was not statistically significant.

3 Likes

My supply of dutasteride arrived this week and I have to say that it is far superior to finasteride. Finasteride caused depression for me. Dutasteride is causing a little bit of euphoria (maybe placebo). However, it does not cause depression!

Finasteride caused testicular pain. Dutasteride does not!

Dutasteride is superior to finasteride IMHO.

I take Dutasteride due to my high PSA (1.71), BPH, hair loss, and a familial history of prostate cancer. I feel wonderful about taking it. There is no reason for me to ever go back to finasteride.

5 Likes

I take 0.5 mg/day dutasteride after a little more than 2 years on finasteride. I never had any side effects on finasteride, and have none on dutasteride either, but I’m surprised how common it is for people to report what you did: finasteride causing unpleasant side effects while the stronger dutasteride causes none. Could some of the side effects be not due to DHT suppression, but something specific to the finasteride molecule?

3 Likes

I have no idea what the mechanism is. I’m just happy there is a viable alternative with no side effects (so far)).

1 Like

Return of the Placebo King. :wink:

I only get slightly euphoric after a night’s sleep if it’s high quality and waking up at the end of REM or a dream, just watching the trees then at dawn in the wind is dreamy bliss. No clue why that happens yet.

2 Likes

Me I wake up euphoric when a maniac episode is starting lol. Do you guys know Haircafe on YouTube? He talks about hair loss and 5 alpha reductase inhibitor and he’s super interesting and captivating. He made a few videos on dutasteride and explained a probable mecanism of why dut has less side effects compared to fin. I don’t remember why however

3 Likes

Well it’s not a lot of euphoria for me, just the dream magical feeling continuing a bit which feels nice. It dissipates relatively quickly. I can get the same feeling after exercise if I haven’t done it for awhile.

Haircafe – yes he’s good :+1:

3 Likes

5ar inhibition is weird. 1mg finasteride causes no side effects in me but with 2mg I get a bit depressed. 0.5mg dutasteride causes a variety of side effects in me but 2.5mg causes fewer despite far more tissue DHT suppression. People need to experiment with what 5ar inhibitor at what dosage and frequency they feel fine with.

2 Likes

I’ve been researching finasteride and dutasteride, and my doctor seems to favor dutasteride for treating benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH).

One thing I find curious is that dutasteride—despite being stronger, having a longer half-life, and inhibiting both Type I & Type II 5α-reductase—has fewer reported neurosteroid-related side effects. This might be due to less research on its neurological effects rather than an actual difference in impact.

On the other hand, finasteride, which primarily inhibits 5α-reductase Type II, has been shown to directly lower allopregnanolone and tetrahydrodeoxycorticosterone (THDOC). This reduction in neurosteroids can lead to:

  • Increased anxiety, depression, or brain fog in some users.
  • Sleep disturbances, as allopregnanolone plays a role in deep sleep.
  • Possible anhedonia or emotional blunting, reducing enjoyment from activities.

Supplementing with DHEA, Pregnenolone, Magnesium, Taurine, etc. can help compensate for the neurosteroids that finasteride depletes.

3 Likes

It has reduced allopregnanolone in serum which is not necessarily he same as brain allopregnanolone.

Type 1 isoform is expressed in cortical, hippocampal and olfactory bulb glutamatergic neurones and in some output neurones of the amygdala and thalamus, 34 with high levels in midbrain, corpus callosum, anterior commissure, optic chiasm, pons and spinal cord, 33 , 35 , 36 and particularly in purified myelin preparations obtained from the rat brain. 35 , 37 , 38 At the cellular level, this isoform has been detected in oligodendrocytes and neurones, 39 , 40 , 41 in microglia 42 and astrocytes, 39 , 40 and in Schwann cells. 43 , 44 , 45 , 46 Type 2 isoform is widely expressed from the forebrain to the brain stem and cerebellum of the adult rat 47 and also highly expressed in the spinal cord, particularly in oligodendrocy

Allopregnanolone: An overview on its synthesis and effects - PMC

Most serum allopregnanolone reduction could be the result from inhibition of the 5ar 2 isoenzyme in the spinal cord, for example.

2 Likes

Good points, I should do more research. Thank you for the link.

2 Likes

What did you settle on? 2.5 mg dutasteride?

After 3 years on finastride and Duta i always wanted to try allopregnanolone nasally to see if it makes a difference in my mood ( allopregnanolone is giving intravenously to some women after birth to treat post birth depression cases) not as if i feel something negative from fin or duta im all good and thankful for this wonderful drugs

2 Likes