#61

I don’t mean to go back and forth on this subject, but I think there is still much we don’t know exactly why some zones or people if you will live much longer than the rest. As for you having the minestrone soup and me having the steak, I will take you on that offer :slight_smile: However I’ll do it reluctantly since i like both. How about I’ll have my minestrone and the steak and you stick with your minestrone hahaa. you better wish you never crossed a carnivore if you are plant-based guy though :). But I do concur strength does not always translate into longevity.

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#62

I am cat 1 mountain bike racer in a SingleSpeed category. I am 49 and podium on most races, beating out much younger carnivores. I am 510, 150 lbs pounds and can squat 3 sets of 10 reps of 380 lbs. I don’t go for size in the gym to keep my weight low but rather just strength. So I am not sure why you would imply that one cannot get strong on adequate plant protein mixed with some animal protein daily? Protein is the only macro I really keep a track of. Obviously I am case study but there is no preponderance of evidence in clinical studies that favors one type of protein over the other for muscle building, as long as plant protein is carefully cultivated.

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#63

I hear you but when you get this Doc saying best protein is red meat, what do I know?

RED MEAT: The Single BEST Food for Healing and Repair - YouTube

I’m tempted to believe though that a mainly meat diet may not be as good as a balanced mainly plant diet for longevity (I only count anything over 105 years old as living more than normal since I know a few people who are in their late 90’s and a few that passed at 98-100 without doing anything in particular to live that long. One of them was a regular drinker, 3-5 drinks of brandy daily, and was also fat but ate only one meal a day meat+rice and beans etc …) . However, I do think fish protein is extremely healthy and good for longevity.

#64

That sandwich does sounds very tasty!

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#65

1-s2.0-S1550413123003741-main.pdf (7.2 MB)

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#66

Sorry to hit you with this old post but I am interested in your thinking of down regulation of mTOR everyday. I try to boost mTOR on my anabolic days (24 hours post resistance training) and only down regulate in my “post recovery” periods (25-36/48 hours post resistance training).

And you do much more exercise than I do. I assume a big chunk of it is endurance exercise which is thought to be catabolic. What can you share?

Thanks

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#67

Back to the topic at hand: FMD

This talk is very interesting. I had long ago moved on from fasting as anything more than calorie control (which I do 1x/week) but now I’m not so sure. From a muscle mass retention during weight loss perspective, FMD (or just fasting?) seems like a path forward based on this talk. I realize that this is going against Attia the Great but I’ll live with it.

Thoughts? I’m particularly interested in evidence to the contrary.

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#68

I have not read the previous posts in this lengthy thread. I’m not sure I grasped your question correctly. In my specific experience (13 cycles carried out), during a 5-days cycle of FMD I’ve lost form 2 to 3 kg bodyweight, some of it adiposity, some of it muscle mass, in what percentage I do not know.
I always used to do some resistance exercise, in moderate dosages. No cardio. Usually lots of naps.
My starting BMI was from 24 to 26 adiposity from about 12 to 15%.
The only time I’ve done a water only 5 days fast, when I was about 22, I lost 5 kg of bodyweight, much of it muscle mass. So there is an advantage with FMD with regards to muscle mass conservation and a huge advantage with regards to adherence, at least as far as my system is concerned. Some people have fewer issues with weight loss and compliance with a water only fast.
Peter Attia used to suggest a keto version of the FMD which I also tried, with satisfaction.
I never tried to go beyond 5 days but it would have been easy, on the fifth day my hunger was down and my stomach was sick of bland zucchini with nothing on them but salt and pepper.

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#69

12-15% body fat is not high. Was that accurate (Dexa)? I wonder if being low-ish body fat to start led to higher lean mass loss?

Was some of the lean mass loss water? If glycogen stores fell then a lot of water (adds to lean weight) was lost. Did you regain weight immediately afterwards?

Did the weight loss accumulate over the time course of the repeated FMD intervals? Your body fat must be quite low now. I am interested in losing some visceral fat without losing muscle (My Dexa says I am 16% body fat)

Thanks. I am preparing for an interview on getting benefits of fasting without the detriments of muscle loss. That’s the goal anyway.

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#70

I can’t offer much here, but I’ve done Prolon over a dozen times. I’m always surprised not to see more about it here, so it makes me question its efficacy!

I’ll can only offer that the daily glycerin drink it provides is for the purpose of preserving muscle. I assume you know this, but if you haven’t done prolon, perhaps not?

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#71

Beth, I tried glycerin once, yes, the purpose was the one you mentioned, but it didn’t work on me. And the collateral effect was very loose bowels!!
My FMDs were based on home based ingredients, tracking with cronometer the nutrients so that it complied with Longo’s prescriptions (45% carbs, 45% fats, 10% protein). Latest times I did a lower carbs variation of it, which is even more effective.

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#72

@Beth Correct. I have not tried FMD. I have fasted many times for up to 3 days (which is my mental health limit; I go crazy after 3 days). I do a 24 hour grapefruit only “fast” every week for calorie control. I am interested in doing something bigger every once in a while to knock down body fat if I can avoid excessive muscle loss.

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#73

The percentages I cited were by visual estimate, never DEXA. Yes, probably about 50% of the loss was caused by glycogen depletion in muscles and the water bound to it.
I did not regain weight immediately, it always took 2-3 weeks.
I have very little visceral fat, when I reached 73 kg of weight, 170 cm height, the adiposity was mostly subcutaneous.
The weight loss did not accumulate after cycles. My aim was to gain a higher BMI so that I could go on doing FMDs indefinitely with higher BMIs on the low end. But then my fasting glucose drifted upwards, I went low-carb, and family problems took away my sleep regularity. After 2 years of that and only 2 FMDs I lost 10 kg and now I’m struggling to regain body weight. I go inexorably catabolic when I cut carbs, maybe more than the average.
My advice is that you experiment by yourself, one FMD every 3 months for a year. You should refeed on a normocaloric regimen with exercise. Everyone is different so you may be able to achieve your goal.

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#74

I can’t even make myself fast for 24 hours with no food. In fact, I find the days I have to do fasting bloodwork to be a ginormous burden!

So, knowing that about me, I can easily do prolon. Not to be confused with enjoying it!!! I am so scarred from it, I no longer eat soup!

@mccoy that stinks. I’ve never had any issues.

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#75

Beth, I can’t fast at all either. Dr. Stacy Sims explains this from a female hormonal perspective (in the context of athletic performance) really well in my opinion. It has something to do with our cortisol levels. Sorry, I can’t remember all the details but when I heard her talk about it I felt much better about myself because I had always compared myself to my husband who can go much longer without eating than I can. I always thought something was wrong with me.

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#76

That’s interesting, thank you for passing that along! Yeah, I always hear about people who wake up, workout, go to work, and then eat their first meal at lunchtime as if it were no problem! They seem like martians to me :slight_smile:

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#77

Sims said that’s one of the worst things a woman can do because it keeps us in a catabolic state. I’m actually glad now that I’ve never been good at fasting. It’s probably helped me keep some valuable muscle. :slight_smile:

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#78

Sorry to hit you with this old post but I am interested in your thinking of down regulation of mTOR everyday. I try to boost mTOR on my anabolic days (24 hours post resistance training) and only down regulate in my “post recovery” periods (25-36/48 hours post resistance training).

And you do much more exercise than I do. I assume a big chunk of it is endurance exercise which is thought to be catabolic. What can you share?

Thanks

Oh wow, that’s an old post. LOL
I no longer use the curcumin, having done more research on it I am not sure if the rewards outweigh the risks. I do it use as needed for aches and such.
There is really no great evidence that EGCG suppresses it m-tor in any meaningful way, I still drink my Matcha tea but for other reasons.
When it comes to exercise… majority of it is done over my three day weekends - F/S/S a combo of mainly zone 2, strength training, HIIT and auxillary training (balance, stretching, rolling).
Exercise is SELECTIVE inhibitor and activator of m-tor esp. in the muscle, so not catabolic.

I typically work Mon - Thurs so I used that as recovery, but I did introduce rapamycin 3-5 mg on most Mondays, and that’s truly catabolic. I do skip it before major riding events or when then I don’t feel well.

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#79

I had thought endurance exercise was catabolic which is why runners and road cyclists are skinny. No? They build mitochondria but not muscle mass.

I use endurance exercise to turn on ampk to signal energy shortage. I use weight lifting to turn on mTOR to build muscle. Am I wrong?

#80

I think it’s only catabolic if you end up with a calorie deficit and don’t recover. I suppose if you run 20 hours a week then and burn 10,000 calories a week you might be at risk if you don’t eat enough.
BTW, look up how much Michael Phelps had to eat during his training.

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