Lots of new science on this point lately. You can eat a huge portion of protein in a sitting and get anabolic benefit from most (about 1/2) of it for the entire day (maybe longer?). The low end is more about a leucine threshold to trigger MPS but without enough EAA the process runs out of substrate. Protein in a food matrix is “more efficient” than powders. Optimal amount is less than maximum useful amount (1.6-2.2 g/kg). Optimal is only important if you want to avoid over eating calories.
The more protein you eat the less it matters: what type, how often, etc.
Above notes are from the podcast I just listen to featuring Luc van Loon w/ Rhonda.
3 Likes
Beth
#43
Thanks Joseph!
I’ll listen and will no doubt be back with follow up questions!!!
1 Like
Here’s a good talk with Nicholas Burd, a muscle physiologist who worked in Luc van Loons lab
My notes included info from this talk.
2 Likes
Beth
#45
THANKS! I even watched that proof ep., but I forgot most of it!! Curses!
I watched the Patrick one last night and I’ll re-watch this one right now. You have inspired me to take notes so I don’t have to ask you again in 2 months! (All I do is relearn the same stuff over and over… tis my life!)
I did write down some questions from last night… I’ll be back!!! And thanks again!
1 Like
I’ve been looking into protein again as I am preparing for a podcast on balancing the benefits of sufficient protein with the benefits of fasting. How to do both? Not simultaneously of course.
2 Likes
I think the issue is simply one of going in cycles, but not to fast for too long and ensure that you are doing some exercise whilst fasting.
2 Likes
mccoy
#48
What comes to mind to me is a schedule of Valter Longo’s 5 days Fast Mimicking Diet. The one Prolon advertised, but it must not be done necessarily on the Prolon package. I myself have been doing it for a few years. Ideal frequency is individual, but I found that 3-4 times a year was optimal to me.
So yes, like John Hemming says, cycles, 5 days (not too long) 750 kcals /day (first day 1150), controlled macros, plus exercise.
I had good results, I managed to keep body mass during those cycles, losing 6 pounds after the cycle and gaining them anew after 15 -20 days.
What made me stop? The fact that I lost too much weight after a moderate carb regimen. Still recovering. As I wrote elsewhere, my issue is that I lose weight too easily.
People who are overweight or who don’t mind a thin build could do that once a month, that would perhaps have an effect similar to taking Rapamycin.
2 Likes
@mccoy @John_Hemming Thanks. Cycles is the key to most interventions, and is part of the problem. It’s much harder to build a habit on behaviors that don’t repeat often.
But, it’s still better to know what to do. And habits that create some short term good outcomes (weight loss) but long term bad outcomes (low muscle mass), are not good habits.
2 Likes
mccoy
#50
Of course, when speaking of fasting, refeeding is crucial. If done correctly, we can reap the benefits of fasting without the potential drawbacks.
2 Likes
mccoy
#51
Perhaps it won’t answer to the Original Questions, but, when speaking of protein absorption, the concept of DIAAS should not be neglected, probably. I’ve been interested in this concept in the context of a strategy to optimize protein, or better EAAs intake (the minimum amount possible with the maximum effect). Interesting enough, among vegetable protein only soy has a DIAAS which approaches animal sources, whereas mixtures of animal and vegetable protein have higher DIAAS.
Mixtures of plant protein have usually higher DIASS than the single components, an already known fact.
Wheat has a DIAAS value of 45 (Mathai et al., 2017); however, when wheat is processed in the form of a breakfast cereal, it may only have a DIAAS value of 1 (Rutherfurd et al., 2015). In contrast, milk has a DIAAS value of 118 (Rutherfurd et al., 2015). The calculated DIAAS value of a mixed meal of 60% milk and 40% breakfast cereal is 107 (Rutherfurd et al., 2015), demonstrating the ability of milk to complement wheat resulting in a balanced meal that meet the requirement for all indispensable AA. Likewise, it was recently demonstrated that milk and eggs are efficient in complementing low-quality plant proteins to improve the DIAAS value (Shivakumar et al., 2019). Although legumes generally have a greater DIAAS value than cereal grains, they are limiting in methionine and may contain antinutritional factors that often reduce the absorption of amino acids or micronutrients (Rutherfurd et al., 2015, Shivakumar et al., 2019). Consequently, animal proteins are more effective in increasing the protein quality of mixed meals and meeting human amino acid requirements than proteins from legumes.
3 Likes
Interesting. The idea of protein efficiency has taken on greater importance as I am working to reduce visceral fat burden while building useful protein mass. I want to find a minimum protein intake (for calorie reasons) that maximizes MPS (net of MPB) by feeding the stimulus from exercise which I do in pulses. I aim to build body protein over time by building more than I lose with fasting / rapamycin/ under eating to burn the visceral fat.
I used to (still do but less so) eat extra protein to be sure I got enough. But my body adapted and is now less efficient with protein. So I want to shrink my protein intake as a part of shrinking my calorie intake. …but still build functional protein mass (muscle, mitochondria, connective tissue, collagen, bone, etc).
1 Like
This paper is somewhere here already but I’ll add again to make it easier for people to check out these statements about protein.
Quite amazing new learning about protein:
“… postprandial amino acid oxidation rates represent a relative minor metabolic fate (<15% of the increment in ingested protein), supporting our findings that the majority of the ingested protein (>85%) is utilized for tissue protein synthesis….Collectively, these data refute the notion that amino acid oxidation functions as a sink for excess amino acid provision.”
“…prolonged leucine availability does not result in prolonged mTOR activation and that enhanced anabolic signaling is not required to perpetuate the postprandial increase in muscle protein synthesis rate.”
“…ingestion of a single large amount of protein is followed by a prolonged anabolic response, which would obviate the need to consume another protein-rich meal in close temporal proximity. This may explain why time-restricted feeding patterns do not seem to compromise muscle mass maintenance.”
“it has been speculated that sustained anabolism and mTOR activation inhibit clearance of compromised proteins. However, we observed that the ingestion of a single, large amount of protein (100 g) resulted in prolonged anabolism without compromising whole-body protein breakdown rates, muscle mTOR signaling, or markers of muscle autophagy. Collectively, our data suggest that time-restricted feeding protocols likely overestimate the length of their postabsorptive windows (my add: due to long digestion timeframe) but also that a postabsorptive state is not required to allow protein clearance.”
2 Likes
mccoy
#54
One of the coauthors is Look Van Loon, who has been interviewed by quite a few podcast hosts, including Peter Attia.
2 Likes
A great way to start your body energy off right each morning is with eggs.
I have one most mornings with cheese and onions chopped and mixed in… and always keep a bowl of 4 to 5 hard boiled eggs in the refrigerator for days I am running late… or for a quick evening snack.
There was a time when eggs (like steak) were touted as cholesterol poisoning… avoid to prevent CVD.
Well… maybe they are heart friendly.
1 Like
mccoy
#56
Eggs remain an exceptional food, with low cost, high absorbability, and very good amino acid profile + choline.
However, cholesterol remains, if absorbed, a recognized causal risk factor for atherosclerosis.
Unfortunately, I had to eliminate them, but I wish I could keep eating them, perhaps I’ll come up with a strategy!
3 Likes
PBJ
#57
I do not have a problem with cholesterol from eggs, but I have heard that ezetimibe is a good solution to block cholesterol absorption.
1 Like
mccoy
#58
PBJ, yes I’m taking 2.5 mg/d, a minidose, to observe the effect on liver enzymes. This dosage together with lifestyle intervention (no eggs, controlled amounts of saturated fats) puts me at about the 10th percentile of ApoB. I may increase the amount and reintroduce eggs, since the nutritional advantage of organic eggs from free-ranging chickens is formidable.
2 Likes
Try ezetimibe? I take it. Zero side effects. Works very well.
Edit: I see you are taking it. I take 10mg. And I eat a lot of eggs.
2 Likes
