I’m not claiming acupuncture should be routinely used or has a strong body of evidence. I’m saying that there are some real reasons with some evidence of some treatment efficacy in several meds they used, which is why they used some of those methods at the time as a treatment with certain improvements. I’m not claiming a lot of the treatments are proven at all. I’m not even advocating for TCM to be used as any treatment.

I will also note that the West tends to be very biased in equating traditional Chinese medicine to acupuncture. The people that brought it here were not particularly interested in nutrition because we don’t treat nutrition as “prestigious” here, yet traditional Chinese medicine historically has top prestige for TCM physicians that deal with nutrition - a lot of knowledge was passed down as “food as medicine” with the Okinawans btw - heavily derived from TCM. If they’re living so long with no erectile dysfunction in their 90s (a potential major sign of atherosclerosis is nonpsychogenic erectile dysfunction) - it can be worth looking into it.

Why default to assuming there’s nothing of use if there’s a signal of potential lifespan extension? Worth exploring IMO.

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Greatly appreciate the thoughtful and informative reply . . . and that the science is not decisive here.

Coincidentally, when challenged to get my LDL lower than 116, I added about 6 weeks ago 35-40 grams of soluble fiber (on top of the 3-5 grams of Modified Citrus Pectic I was already taking) mostly psyllium husk. That on top of fiber from food – mostly broccoli and cauliflower, my next lipid panel is beginning of February so wish me luck.

As an important aside, the 116 LDL was after my initial 4-5 doses of RAPA (4mg at 10 day interval). I’m achieving very low net carbs most every day (e.g. zero fruit or starchy vegetables). Seeing a lot of discussion of lipids going the wrong way on RAPA, that has me thinking . . .

Your overall caveat/disclaimer is well taken and definitely not seeking medical advice.

Thanks again!

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True. For what it’s worth, I should have said ALL “traditional” medicine, not just Chinese.

I admit that I have a lot of contempt for any kind of medicine or treatment with “traditional” or “holistic” in front of it.

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It works and when we had no antibiotics it was a valid therapy

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According to this paper, those who have below 5th percentile LDL and apoB in which the gene affected is APOB, there are side effects. However, those who have a below 5th percentile LDL and apoB through the PCSK9 gene being affected, there is no adverse effects.

From cited paper:

Genetic conditions include a heterogeneous group of disorders characterized by reduced plasma levels of total cholesterol, LDL-C, or apolipoprotein B (apoB) less than the 5th percentile.4 The most severe multisystem phenotypes due to ultrarare homozygous mutations (defined as mutations on both alleles or biallelic pathogenic mutations) including abetalipoproteinemia (ABL), homozygous familial hypobetalipoproteinemia (FHBL), and chylomicron retention disease, are characterized by the absence, or near absence, of LDL-C. Clinical findings include steatorrhea, failure to thrive, and fat-soluble vitamin deficiencies, sometimes with retinopathy, coagulopathy, and progressive neurologic abnormalities. Most patients with these severe disorders present in infancy or early childhood with one or more findings, whereas the low-to-undetectable LDL-C is generally identified during the evaluation. In contrast, individuals with homozygous mutations in proprotein convertase subtilisin/kexin type 9 (PCSK9) encoding PCSK9, or ANGPTL3 encoding angiopoietin-like protein 3, have low but detectable LDL-C, without systemic involvement.

Certain genetic conditions which lower LDL and apoB have serious side effects, while others do not

which obtained LDL-C values as low as 30 mg/dL and 50 mg/dL, respectively, demonstrated a reduction in the number of CVD-related events without development of fatty liver disease.10, 33, 34 These interventions are considered to reduce LDL-C through enhanced LDL receptor activity. In contrast, other newer LDL-C–lowering therapies including, mipomersen, an oligonucleotide inhibitor of apoB synthesis, and, lomitapide, a small molecule inhibitor of MTP, lower LDL-C by compromising production and secretion of apoB-containing lipoproteins. Both agents are associated with accumulation of intrahepatic fat.35 These findings suggest that low LDL-C may be a marker of, rather than a causal factor for, fatty liver, the latter more likely the result of compromised assembly and secretion of apoB-containing lipoproteins.

What’s causing fatty liver? More likely that it is the mechanism of LDL / apoB lowering and not the low LDL or apoB on its own, because of different side effects depending on the mechanism for lowering.

Lifelong genetically determined low but not absent levels of LDL-C are associated with significantly reduced CVD risk and longer life expectancy,29, 30

Based on our current understanding, it has been suggested that those with confirmed heterozygous APOB-related FHBL should undergo monitoring for liver disease (Table 1). If present, fat-soluble vitamin deficiencies are generally mild and easily corrected.

Although the prevalence is low and the long-term consequences are generally not severe, individuals with heterozygous APOB-related FHBL appear to be at increased risk of fatty liver disease.

The paper cited first here:

This case report is reflective of a family with normal development without known adverse clinical complications despite very low levels of LDL-C. Given the finding of an APOB LoF as the cause for the low LDL-C, routine screening for liver disease and other associated compilations should be pursued long term. Importantly, this patient and affected family members had normal development with very low LDL-C levels, and will likely gain protection against atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease.

So what I’ve think I’ve learned that LDL lowering through loss of function of apoB can have side effects to the liver and fat soluble vitamin absorption. However through other genetic mechanisms there has not been. Pharmacological drugs that decrease LDL / apoB through LDL receptor activity has not caused problems for the liver, but those targeting apoB have, which makes it likely it is because of the mechanism of action.

It’s interesting also that too much fat accumulation of the pancreas relative to individual susceptability causes type 2 diabetes (according to this interview), and we know that there is a small diabetes risk of statins, I don’t know if there is any pattern here, my estimation is 10% chance.

There was this rare other type of apoB loss of function that did not cause problems in this case. I’ll have to read a bit about PCSK9 loss of function causing very low LDL levels more and see what side effects they have (a certain percent of these have very low LDL), but these suggest none. I think I’m more certain now that very low LDL levels aren’t harmful, but there are questions about the liver and vitamin absorption, but it seems unlikely this is caused by the low LDL and not the way the LDL was lowered?

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I’ll note I’m not particularly concerned about T2D in the typical doses of statins used in patients that are indicated for a statin. One can monitor for that specifically. I am far more concerned about the pleiotropic mechanisms overall.

Contrary to popular opinion, some statins may reduce the risk of diabetes - see pitavastatin here:

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Yes, just like much of TCM before antibiotics.

Research Shows That Most Heart Disease Deaths Are Preventable By Changing Diets

“Our analysis shows that unhealthy diets, high blood pressure, and high serum cholesterol are the top three contributors to deaths from heart attacks and angina – collectively called ischaemic heart disease,” said study author Dr. Xinyao Liu of Central South University, Changsha, China, adding, “This was consistent in both developed and developing countries.”

“More than six million deaths could be avoided by reducing intake of processed foods, sugary beverages, trans and saturated fats, and added salt and sugar, while increasing intake of fish, fruits, vegetables, nuts, and whole grains. Ideally, we should eat 200 to 300 mg of omega-3 fatty acids from seafood each day. On top of that, every day we should aim for 200 to 300 grams of fruit, 290 to 430 grams of vegetables, 16 to 25 grams of nuts, and 100 to 150 grams of whole grains,” she added.

The team of researchers analyzed data from the 2017 Global Burden of Disease Study which was conducted between 1990-2017 in 195 countries to reveal that there were 126.5 million people living with ischaemic heart disease as well as 10.6 million new diagnoses with the condition causing 8.9 million deaths in 2017, and this represents 16% of all death compared to 12.6% in 1990.

Background References:

References/Sources/Materials provided by:

Dai H, Much AA, Maor E, et al. Global, regional, and national burden of ischaemic heart disease and its attributable risk factors, 1990–2017: results from the Global Burden of Disease Study 2017. Eur Heart J Qual Care Clin Outcomes. 2020. doi:10.1093/ehjqcco/qcaa076.

GBD 2017 Diet Collaborators. Health effects of dietary risks in 195 countries, 1990–2017: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2017. Lancet. 2019;393:1958–1972.

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This has been know for the last 30 years or longer.

The original Dean Ornish MD studies.

Caldwell Esselstyn MD published work

And several others.

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Beware - this is why I continually repeat one should always read studies in full and have complete context

Ornish basically did a tiny sample size study on a 10% fat vegetarian diet + intensive lifestyle changes which included smoking cessation.

Esselstyn did an uncontrolled tiny sample size study of statins + “vegan diet”. That doesn’t say what he is claiming, he is very biased.

Basically - the studies are pretty useless, but often used to justify vegan ideology.

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Appears that many insurance companies, Medicare and major hospital DO NOT think so, as;

“The Journal of the American Medical Association in 1998, indicating that there was even more reversal after five years than after one year . Ornish reports that the five-year results showed an average improvement to the heart of more than 300% and 2.5 times fewer cardiac events.”

“Also, the program is proven to reverse type 2 diabetes and can even stop or reverse the progression of early-stage prostate cancer. Medicare decided to cover Dr. Ornish Reversal Program to help many patients avail the health benefits of the program.”

Can not be such small study’s as the $9,500 cost is paid by many insurance companies and Medicare.

Have you bothered to open the link to the paper?

Design.— Randomized controlled trial conducted from 1986 to 1992 using a randomized invitational design.

Patients.— Forty-eight patients with moderate to severe coronary heart disease were randomized to an intensive lifestyle change group or to a usual-care control group, and 35 completed the 5-year follow-up quantitative coronary arteriography.

There must have been more than “one” study.

Approval{payment by insurance companies, Medicare and offered at most major hospitals] a billing cost of $9,500 per patient, based on one study?

I made a statement of fact, it been know for 30 years and insurance companies and Medicare paying for the training/treatment.

Some people may not like it as it does NOT meet their personal criteria/acceptance.

But it does meet insurance companies and Medicare criteria acceptance.

What do you find persuasive in that video? We’ve been discussing this topic and adjacent topics in this thread a lot.

The mendelian randomization studies and genetic studies show a large decrease in ASCVD and a longevity benefit from reducing LDL cholesterol levels without any observed side effects. And in the end, excellent evidence in the form of MR studies, genetic studies and RCTs triumphs any story telling or mechanistic speculation. Doctors, scientists, all are often wrong.

A lot of story tellers, MD’s, scientists have all their own pet theory which they want to leave a legacy with, and anyone who identifies with what they’ve discovered is doomed to never change their mind. I like Peter Attia because he shows he can change his mind when the evidence does.

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There is an argument that reducing cholesterol production has a benefit - mechanistically it would adjust cytosolic metabolism and free up tca for either cytosolic ROS, nuclear acetyl-CoA or other purposes. Cytosolic ROS is a helpful tool for fighting infection. Hence statins have their uses.

I think rapamycins benefit lies in improved mitochondria beefing up the cytosolic metabolism. That also increases cholesterol production.

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Insurance covers chiropractor, acupuncture and some will even pay for homeopathy. That’s even though sham acupuncture works (highly suggestive of a strong placebo effect) and homeopathy is literally based on violating the laws of Physics (“law of infinitesimals” is literally at odds with Avogadro’s number)

Chiropractic spinal manipulation is based on limited, low-quality evidence and can cause severe adverse events (ie vascular dissection)

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Stephen Barrett’s useless organization for the allopathic industry.

Barrett has not practice a day in his life.

He practiced for 32 years actually

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