be careful with statins, the data for their efficacy is weak.

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Ad hominem attacks serve no useful purpose, I have read the original scientific papers on statins, I have reviewed the positions of the European and American Cardiology associations which curiously are distancing themselves from the cholesterol hypothesis. My purpose in posting a low level but accurate video link was to offer an easy introduction to the problems of this drug class without posting papers that require hours to comprehend. Dr. Attia’s book endorses statins however the data does not support this position. People need to understand the incredible bias of medical literature. If one examines the COVID response by our journals, FDA, CDC, Universities then willful blindness as personified by your unquestioning support of the cholesterol hypothesis can be bad for your health.

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Apologies if you felt offended.

Okay, so what do you think is false of either the cholesterol hypothesis or statins?
Is it that the data for the efficacy is weak, do you believe statins have a weak efficacy?
Can you tell me what you consider adequate efficacy?

Except that my own blood work shows they work quite well.

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Both the cholesterol hypothesis and the use of statins have poor quality evidence to support either the concept or the treatment. Cholesterol has always been known to be a weak risk factor for vascular disease and statins show no difference in all cause mortality after years of follow up.

Statins may increase diabetes, but benefit still outweighs risk | Cleveland Clinic Journal of Medicine statin associated increased risk of diabetes

Statin-associated muscle symptoms: impact on statin therapy—European Atherosclerosis Society Consensus Panel Statement on Assessment, Aetiology and Management - PMC European statement on muscle symptoms and statin use

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/6/e010401 LDL inverse correlation with mortality

Assessing the Link Between Statins and Insulin Intolerance: A Systematic Review - PMC review article, looking at diabetes, insulin resistance, and statins.

Association Between Low-Density Lipoprotein Cholesterol Reduction and Relative and Absolute Effects of Statin Treatment all cause mortality shows minimal reduction with statins

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I see you didn’t answer one of my questions. What do you consider adequate efficacy of a statin?

What do you think is acceptable quality evidence?

I am trying to understand your arguments so I can respond.

I have gathered the following propositions so far:

Statin efficacy is weak.
Cholesterol hypothesis has poor quality evidence.
Statins have poor quality evidence.
Statins show no difference in all cause mortality after years of follow up.

Is that correct?

If so I am asking clarifications for the first two what you mean with weak efficacy and poor quality evidence. I want to know what you consider both (1) adequate evidence, and (2) adequate efficacy, for both.

Thanks.

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The JUPITER trial proved how powerful statins are in reducing heart attacks, strokes and all-cause mortality in just a few years of use.
Of course there will always be those who cherry-pick studies where the weakest statins at the weakest dosage used in people with a CAC over 9000 for 4 weeks and then claim that statins don’t help (they do) while at the same time claiming that 110% of people who use them get diabetes and that diabetes is what actually causes heart disease hence why everyone should get on a carnivore diet and buy the influencers book.

When someone claims that absolute risk reduction is low, they’ll always conveniently omit that absolute risk is small to begin with. But it adds up over the years which is where the magic of statins really shines through.

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The Jupiter trial is a case in point, published in the prestigious NEJM. If you look at the numbers you will see less than a 1% risk reduction per 100patient years for stroke and heart attack. This could also be phrased as a 99% chance the drug does nothing. Then consider liver, muscle toxicity and diabetic risk to balance the efficacy of the drug. ‘The rates of the primary endpoint were .77 and 1.36 per 100 person years in the rosuvastatin and placebo groups respectively’. They then state this is s 56% risk reduction. In medicine where we live on the multiple normal distributions of a biological system, I would say less that a 1% absolute risk reduction means the treatment is poor to useless. Note also that diabetes went up in the statin group

Vascular risk is best modified by exercise, normal weight, treating hypertension, healthy food choices. Most patients that take statins in the United States have metabolic syndrome which includes elevated lipids but is secondary to obesity. Taking a pill for cholesterol in isolation is not going to modify risk.

nejm.org — Private

METHODS

We randomly assigned 17,802 apparently healthy men and women with low-density lipoprotein

(LDL) cholesterol levels of less than 130 mg per deciliter (3.4 mmol per liter) and high-sensitivity C-reactive protein levels of 2.0 mg per liter or higher to rosuvastatin, 20 mg daily, or placebo and followed them for the occurrence of the combined primary end point of myocardial infarction, stroke, arterial revascularization, hospitalization for unstable angina, or death from cardiovascular causes.

RESULTS

The trial was stopped after a median follow-up of 1.9 years (maximum, 5.0). Rosuvastatin reduced LDL cholesterol levels by 50% and high-sensitivity C-reactive protein levels by 37%. The rates of the primary end point were 0.77 and 1.36 per 100 person-years of follow-up in the rosuvastatin and placebo groups, respectively (hazard ratio for rosuvastatin, 0.56; 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.46 to 0.69; P<0.00001), with corresponding rates of 0.17 and 0.37 for myocardial infarction (hazard ratio, 0.46; 95% CI, 0.30 to 0.70; P=0.0002), 0.18 and 0.34 for stroke (hazard ratio, 0.52; 95% CI, 0.34 to 0.79; P=0.002), 0.41 and 0.77 for revascularization or unstable angina (hazard ratio, 0.53; 95% CI, 0.40 to 0.70; P<0.00001), 0.45 and 0.85 for the combined end point of myocardial infarction, stroke, or death from cardiovascular causes (hazard ratio, 0.53; 95% CI, 0.40 to 0.69; P<0.00001), and 1.00 and 1.25 for death from any cause (hazard ratio, 0.80; 95% CI, 0.67 to 0.97; P=0.02). Consistent effects were observed in all subgroups evaluated. The rosuvastatin group did not have a significant increase in myopathy or cancer but did have a higher incidence of physician-reported diabetes

CONCLUSIONS

In this trial of apparently healthy persons without hyperlipidemia but with elevated high-sensitivity C-reactive protein levels, rosuvastatin significantly reduced the incidence of major cardiovascular events. (ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT00239681.)

Introduction

Methods

TRIAL DESIGN

JUPITER was a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, multicenter trial conducted at 1315 sites in 26 countries (see the Supplementary Appendix, available with the full text of this article at www.nejm.org). The trial protocol was designed and written by the study chair and approved by the local institutional review board at each participating center. The trial data were analyzed by the academic study statistician and the academic programmer. The academic authors vouch for the accuracy and completeness of the data and the analyses.

The trial was financially supported by AstraZeneca. The sponsor collected the trial data and

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This article summarizes how a former editor of the NEJM resigned in disgust regarding the capture of journals by big pharma. Universities get their funding through Pharma, doctors that don’t tow the line are fired, the journals won’t publish their data. Fauci directed the NIAID, money to pharmaceutical ventures contrary to the principles of how a government agency should allocate funds thereby giving more control to big Pharma. There is a revolving door with the CDC and FDA with big Pharma. How do we trust our doctors?

corrupted academic institutions

In the May/June issue of the Boston Review, Dr.

By Susan Perry

May 5, 2010

In the May/June issue of the Boston Review, Dr. Marcia Angell, former editor-in-chief of the New England Journal of Medicine, details the sordid story of how corporate dollars have corrupted research and education at academic medical centers - including at her current place of employment, the Harvard Medical School.

The article is adapted from a talk she gave at Harvard last December.

Angell, of course, has written about this topic many times before, most notably in her 2004 book, “The Truth About the Drug Companies.”

Writes Angell:

The boundaries between academic medicine - medical schools, teaching hospitals, and their faculty - and the pharmaceutical industry have been dissolving since the 198os, and the important differences between their missions are becoming blurred. Medical research, education, and clinical practice have suffered as a result.

The article provides plenty of examples of exactly why health consumers should worry about this money-driven blurring of missions. Here are some highlights (but do read the entire article):

• “To a remarkable extent … medical centers have become supplicants to the drug companies, deferring to them in ways that would have been unthinkable even twenty years ago. Often, academic researchers are little more than hired hands who supply human subjects and collect data according to instructions from corporate paymasters. The sponsors keep the data, analyze it, write the papers, and decide whether and when and where to submit them for publication. In multi-center trials, researchers may not even be allowed to see all of the data, an obvious impediment to science and a perversion of standard practice.”

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As I pointed out, the absolute riks is less than 2% to begin with. It adds up over the years, resulting in nearly half of all deaths being related to ASCVD.

Then consider liver, muscle toxicity and diabetic risk to balance the efficacy of the drug.

Rosuvastatin is amongst the safest statins for liver and muscle toxicity. Diabetes risk is small (1 in 250 or so). All-cause mortality is also 20% lower than in the placebo group meaning none of those factors had any effect.

They then state this is s 56% risk reduction. In medicine where we live on the multiple normal distributions of a biological system, I would say less that a 1% absolute risk reduction means the treatment is poor to useless.

Over a median of just 2 years and you can seen the curves diverge the longer this goes on. Look at the trend in the curves.

Most patients that take statins in the United States have metabolic syndrome which includes elevated lipids but is secondary to obesity.

Obesity is an independent risk factor for heart disease, not the only factor. Even perfectly healthy people eventually get heart disease.

This article summarizes how a former editor of the NEJM resigned in disgust regarding the capture of journals by big pharma.

Muh big pharma boogeyman.

Universities get their funding through Pharma, doctors that don’t tow the line are fired, the journals won’t publish their data.

No they actually get their funding from space aliens.

How do we trust our doctors?

I don’t trust doctors but I do trust proper clinical trials such as the JUPITER trial.

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You’re skipping way ahead:

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Regarding the question of what do you consider an adequate number to define efficacy, there is no number. Statistics are designed to refute the null hypothesis. If the null hypothesis states, ‘statins do not reduce all cause morality’, and the study demonstrates with a P value of .01 that the null hypothesis is false, then the conclusion of the study is the null hypothesis is rejected, and statins may reduce all cause mortality. However, in the real world you are dealing with people who are not the same, i.e. other risk factors, age, sex, comorbidities such that the pooled data of a study is not directly applicable to every person, furthermore you may be able to tell people that they’ve reduced their risk by one percent by taking a drug and one person is going to say I’m not taking the risk of the drugs or swallowing an expensive pill for that 1% whereas the next person may say I am so fearful of heart attack that I’m taking them for that 1/100 chance.

There is no number.

Heart disease only has an absolute risk of 2% over short time periods. Why bother even doing anything about it in the first place? Diabetes has an even lower risk (it kills less than 5% of people over a lifetime) so what is the point of addressing it when you could just stuff your face with chocolate and sugar for pleasure instead? No study has ever shown that having a HbA1c of 4.8 reduces all-cause mortality over a timespan of 2-4 years compared to having a HbA1c of 6.0. Maybe diabetes is even beneficial in some people I mean look at observational trials and the u-curves. Big pharma keeps inventing those blood sugar drugs but didn’t you know we humans need sugar in our blood in order to stay alive?

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You are underestimating the absolute risk by a factor of 80. The absolute risk reduction is closer to 80-100% as you are ignoring the compounding effect on risk for any given individual outside study duration, for decades. Nobody should take these drugs only for a few years. The genetic and mendelian randomization studies proves this.

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Your analysis is flawed, take the JUPITER study and see they used 100 person years as their measure. You can’t just add up numbers and multiply by years, it is illogical

If a person took rosuvastatin for 30 years and this drug reduces risk by 1/100 person years then they might get 3 months for their efforts. Is this not asymptotic with 0?

Why would they stop the study early with such trivial results? Were there side effects such as too many people quit the drug for muscle symptoms?The editors who publish study never see the source data they only only the data pharma wants them to see

On the basis of Kaplan–Meier estimates (Figure 1), the number of patients who would need to be treated with rosuvastatin for 2 years to prevent the occurrence of one primary end point is 95, and the number needed to treat for 4 years is 31. If 4-year risks are projected over an average 5-year treatment period, as has been commonly done in previous statin trials according to the method of Altman and Andersen,22 the number needed to treat to prevent the occurrence of one primary end point is 25.

The longer one uses rosuvastatin the lower the NNT gets.

Good to know! Easy to stop taking statin for a few days when rapamycining, and I will.
Thanks

I’m not talking about the JUPITER study specifically, but in general. The RR and AR reduction compounds over time beyond the benefit shown in trial as evident by MR and genetic studies. You are approaching to prevent all cases of cardiovascular disease if implemented early enough.

You’re thinking too much into numbers over a specific trial and seem to not be able to think past it. Think in causal processes instead and use genetic and MR data on lifelong LDL reduction as well and don’t cherry pick for a specific period or using a specific type of evidence.

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you brought up the Jupiter trial whereas I brought forward 6 others and there are many meta analyses showing zero statin efficacy if all trials both positive and negative are summed up. The position paper meta analysis used by the AHA/ACA have cherry picked only the positive trials.

Make sure you use a big glass of KOOLAID to wash your statins down for the years and years of confidence in Big Pharma