BTW which mice are they using?
This is interesting but it looks like it fails Matt’s 900 days rule.

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If the theory of rapamycin getting the body to recycle mitochondrial DNA as the primary driver of longevity benefit, shouldn’t be a more frequent but lower dose rapamycin regimen be better, such as twice a week for 3mg each vs 6mg weekly? The German mice study has testified that a more chronic dosing is better for healthspan.

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As I see it the issue is within any one cell setting the threshold in terms of mitochondrial membrane potential at a higher point. Hence a higher level of mTOR inhibition if for a shorter period would achieve the objective.

Also I think having mTOR behaving normally most of the time is best.

If you have a link to the German study that would be good.

I think with longer lived creatures there are different priorities as well.

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What geman mice study are you thinking about?

According to the website “pre-aged C57/B6 mice”. Seems like the mice started dying just a month after they were bought (18 months).

Rapamycin
Males 780 → 940 days

Females 800 → 880 days

The extension in female mice seems significantly less than expected.
Anyone see another Rapa study using such short lived controls?

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Here is the link of German mice study, stating chronic dosing is better for healthspan. I personally testing 2x a week regiment vs weekly and I felt subjectively that I am doing better energy wise.

Intermittent rapamycin feeding recapitulates some effects of continuous treatment while maintaining lifespan extension - #5 by Jonas @Krister_Kauppi

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Do you have a link to the original study so we can examine the details?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212877824000334?via%3Dihub

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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212877824000334

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Thanks for that link which gave a link to the actual study

From 6 months of age, male and female C3B6F1 hybrid mice were either continuously fed with 42 mg/kg rapamycin, or intermittently fed by alternating weekly feeding of 42 mg/kg rapamycin food with weekly control feeding.

To me that is two versions of chronic treatment.

Ah, but mice process rapamycin very quickly, typically 4 times faster than humans. So not exactly chronic by mouse standards: 17-alpha-Estradiol Study in Marmosets - #3 by RapAdmin

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Yes, but a week of continual usage is chronic for a week. Its not the same as a single dose and then waiting for a week before another single dose.

I think the issue of senescent cells is an issue more for humans than mice.

This study also had the control mice not living 900 days.

image

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I agree. I do not know of any studies of a true pulsing Rapa protocol. I have zero Rapa in my blood for 1-2 weeks after every dose (which probably hangs around for a week). I won’t do more Rapa or dose more frequently until much better information arrives that says more Rapa is safe and effective for something I want but do not have.

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I think I can tell from my CGM how long Rapa is having an effect, but it will take a week or two to report on this.

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Source: x.com

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Valuable data. Given poor performance of no-rapa and strong performance of rapa alone, I’m inclined to conclude what I would consider the null hypothesis: rapa works and the others don’t.

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Based on Aubrey de Grey’s post:

Female mice benefited significantly from rapamycin in terms of longevity. Specifically, the survival curve of female mice receiving only rapamycin was almost identical to that of the mice receiving all four interventions, indicating that rapamycin was the primary contributor to their extended lifespan.

The survival curve for females receiving only rapamycin (Rapa) closely mirrors that of the group receiving all four interventions, indicating that rapamycin alone was highly effective

Anyone want to chime in? Ladies?

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Here is a post from X on my take on the latest results:

Now the first iteration of the Robust Mouse Rejuvenation (RMR) study conducted by the researcher Aubrey de Grey is almost fully completed. He has shared lifespan data on both median and maximum (90th quartile) on all treatments. The goal with the RMR study is to test different longevity experiments until we at least double the average remaining lifespan of middle-aged mice. This means that a mouse normally lives around 2,5 years but the aim is to extend their lifespan to 3,5 years with longevity treatment/s that are started at 1,5 years of age.

The thing I really like with this study is that it tries to discover powerful combinations of different longevity interventions. Why is combining interventions important? One reason for this is that with the right combination of interventions then most likely it will outperform a single longevity intervention. The tricky thing here is to find the right combination but for every new experiment that is done the field will learn, improve and increase its chances to make breakthrough discoveries that move the longevity needle. Therefore consider supporting the next iteration of the RMR study which will start this year.

Let’s take a look at the data from the RMR 1 study. In the below image you can see a toplist that I have created on the first iteration of the RMR study. The list is sorted by what works best in both genders. I have also added some additional ranking data to it around specific interventions potential as a cocktail ingredient. Here are my takeaways from this iteration.

  1. The mTOR inhibitor rapamycin seems to play a key role in several of the cocktail combinations. This data also supports my assumption why I think a mTOR inhibitor is a good base ingredient in the longevity cocktails that are engineered. I’m quite certain that there are better mTOR inhibitors than rapamycin and this is why I have been driving the project and fundraising together with Ora Biomedical around the largest mTOR inhibitor screening. This year we will get that project fully funded. Some people argue that a mTOR inhibitor is not an interesting intervention to solve aging because it just seems to just slow down the aging process. I fully agree that a mTOR inhibitor as a single intervention is not so interesting and it will not lead to any radical life extension. Maybe it can give us humans 5-15 years extra but that is just speculation. If we are going to solve aging then we need much more than that. But the very interesting thing with a mTOR inhibitor such as rapamycin, or the GSK2126458 (Omipalisib) which the Rapamycin Longevity Lab discovered last year, is their cocktail potential as a base ingredient. I would argue that it would be a big mistake to throw that potential away in the stage we currently are in. My goal is to see that we will find a better mTOR inhibitor than rapamycin and when we do that it would be great to use that compound also in future RMR iterations. Let’s see how things develop and what the data will show this year around the screening project.

  2. Some people argue that the longevity effects of different interventions are due to their effects on weight loss. Some photos of the different mice from the RMR study have been shown on conference talks by Aubrey de Grey and Caitlin Lewis and it looks like the controls without any treatment are much leaner than the treated mice (links to the talks in the comment section). The treated mice look even a bit overweight. In the conference talk with Caitlin she even confirms this by saying: “We don’t want them to be this big and some of the mice are pretty fat.” So one improvement they will do in the next RMR is to give all mice exercise wheels to decrease the risk for them to get overweight and by that the longevity effect will most likely also be even better. It would also be very interesting to improve the rapamycin arm by adding the glucose regulator acarbose to it. This is because rapamycin + acarbose is currently the best mice cocktail that the ITP (Intervention Testing Program) has discovered (pubmed: 36179270). So it would be great to continue to build combination treatments on that finding. I think that combo will also help the mice to keep a healthier weight. But regardless of what the very interesting thing that the RMR study has shown is that despite big weight gain the mice tend to live longer then no treated mice. I’m very curious to look more into this data when it is released.

  3. The gender differences in lifespan is interesting and this is also something that is seen in the different experiments done by the ITP. Currently rapamycin and calorie restriction seems to be the interventions that work really well in female mice. But so far it has been easier to find interventions that work well in male mice than in female mice. Why this is the case we don’t yet fully understand but it will be very interesting when we start to find interventions that extend female mice lifespan as well. If someone knows about an intervention that works really well in female mice please reach out!

  4. The last and more general takeaway that I started to think more and more about during last year is why the lifespan curves look like they do in different studies. In some cases median lifespan is good but not maximum lifespan or vice versa etc. This we can also see in the RMR study. One possible reason for this is that the dose regime which is used is not optimized. So if we for example see a reduction in maximum lifespan compared to median lifespan then it may be due to a too low or too high dose given late in life. I’m also doubtful that the optimal approach around many longevity interventions is to continue them until death. This is because in the late stage of life then the body is most likely in a quite fragile and broken state and I don’t believe the best thing here is for example to continue giving a mTOR inhibitor. My guess is that this pushes the body into a too catabolic state and by that it will increase the risk of a faster death. This year my plan is to write a paper around a theoretical framework which will suggest that a personalized treatment around an intervention throughout life most likely will result in better longevity effects than a fixed non-personalized treatment plan. The framework will use different biomarkers and measurements to give hints if the body is in a too anabolic or too catabolic state and where the sweet spot may be. But one big problem with animal lifespan studies is that it will be hard to implement and use this framework in a high-efficient and cost-effective way. Maybe it is easier to be used in human trials. Regardless of what the paper must be written :slightly_smiling_face:

PS 1. Visit the LEVF website for more information on how to support the upcoming RMR 2 study.

PS 2. Caitlin Lewis at Longevity Summit Dublin 2024

Aubrey de Grey at ARDD 2024

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This is speculation, perhaps right, perhaps wrong. But a couple of points. In rapamycin experiments on mice/rats (other animal models), the treatment continues until death. Yet this shows max LSE (lifespan extension). Are you suggesting that stopping the treatment at some point (old age?) would allow these animals to live even longer? That’s possible, but there is a counter argument. Namely, that even a short rapamycin treatment gives the mice almost the same benefit as lifelong (until death) exposure. But, note, crucially, not longer. I therefore find it unpersuasive that if the treatment was longer, but stopped in old age, it would suddenly make them live longer than if the treatment continued. Furthermore, you mention the mechanism that might make this shift advisable centers around mTOR. Well, CR is a potent mTOR inhibitor, and in CR experiments the animals that live the longest are on CR the longest and most severe, i.e. have their mTOR inhibited most strongly. Strike against that hypothesis.

I also disagree based on the mechanistic speculation (since we’re both speculating here!). I don’t think frailty is caused by mTOR inhibition. In fact, there are grounds to think the opposite. Rapamycin - and CR - preserve muscle function at any age (see: PEARL trial), and specifically in old age, even as an intervention against sarcopenia. Also, rapamycin is an immune modulator. Inflammaging is responsible for muscle tissue deterioration, and inflammaging leads to frailty. Rapamycin attenuates inflammaging - this is one of the primary mechanisms of operation by this drug and what is responsible in large part for its benefits. Inflammaging increases with age, and so the need for rapamycin increases with age - removing it will shorten the life of an old organism, not prolong it.

One needs to see the proper model of how frailty develops. It doesn’t develop because the body stops building muscle/bone/tissue in response to a failing signal from mTOR, and we need to increase the signal. Instead what happens is that there is less response to the signal. The mTOR is working fine and needs no boost, instead the signal is not responded to - likely in part due to systemic inflammation. We need to treat the systemic inflammation with rapamycin, CR, etc., and now the signal can get through. Also, please note - again, the PEARL trial (and other studies), just because rapamycin inhibits mTOR doesn’t mean you can’t build muscle - in the PEARL trial women on rapamycin built more muscle (and anecdotal reports from some members here seem to have the same effect). And there is no reason to think the same isn’t true for other tissues and in old people. In fact we have evidence for that - the Mannick trial… in old people rapamycin rejuvenated a whole system - the immune system (which is associated with longevity!).

Bottom line - my hypothesis is the opposite from your hypothesis. I think rapamycin is especially important in old age. I believe the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of my hypothesis and against your hypothesis. But of course, a hypothesis must be tested, and it should be easy enough to do in mice: have two cohorts, one lifelong rapamycin and one where it is withdrawn in old age. I place my bet fully (croupier, please put ALL my chips here!) on lifelong rapamycin - maybe even increase the dose in old age😁!

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So we know at this point that both rapa and cr work predictability to extend healthspan and lifespan in mice. Further it appears that even temporary cr or rapa treatment offers such benefits. What I’m not clear about is whether these benefits/changes can be passed to offsprings and if so what are these changes - genetic? epigenetic?

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