Here is the link of German mice study, stating chronic dosing is better for healthspan. I personally testing 2x a week regiment vs weekly and I felt subjectively that I am doing better energy wise.

Intermittent rapamycin feeding recapitulates some effects of continuous treatment while maintaining lifespan extension - #5 by Jonas @Krister_Kauppi

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Do you have a link to the original study so we can examine the details?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212877824000334?via%3Dihub

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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212877824000334

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Thanks for that link which gave a link to the actual study

From 6 months of age, male and female C3B6F1 hybrid mice were either continuously fed with 42 mg/kg rapamycin, or intermittently fed by alternating weekly feeding of 42 mg/kg rapamycin food with weekly control feeding.

To me that is two versions of chronic treatment.

Ah, but mice process rapamycin very quickly, typically 4 times faster than humans. So not exactly chronic by mouse standards: 17-alpha-Estradiol Study in Marmosets - #3 by RapAdmin

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Yes, but a week of continual usage is chronic for a week. Its not the same as a single dose and then waiting for a week before another single dose.

I think the issue of senescent cells is an issue more for humans than mice.

This study also had the control mice not living 900 days.

image

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I agree. I do not know of any studies of a true pulsing Rapa protocol. I have zero Rapa in my blood for 1-2 weeks after every dose (which probably hangs around for a week). I won’t do more Rapa or dose more frequently until much better information arrives that says more Rapa is safe and effective for something I want but do not have.

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I think I can tell from my CGM how long Rapa is having an effect, but it will take a week or two to report on this.

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Source: x.com

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Valuable data. Given poor performance of no-rapa and strong performance of rapa alone, I’m inclined to conclude what I would consider the null hypothesis: rapa works and the others don’t.

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Based on Aubrey de Grey’s post:

Female mice benefited significantly from rapamycin in terms of longevity. Specifically, the survival curve of female mice receiving only rapamycin was almost identical to that of the mice receiving all four interventions, indicating that rapamycin was the primary contributor to their extended lifespan.

The survival curve for females receiving only rapamycin (Rapa) closely mirrors that of the group receiving all four interventions, indicating that rapamycin alone was highly effective

Anyone want to chime in? Ladies?

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Here is a post from X on my take on the latest results:

Now the first iteration of the Robust Mouse Rejuvenation (RMR) study conducted by the researcher Aubrey de Grey is almost fully completed. He has shared lifespan data on both median and maximum (90th quartile) on all treatments. The goal with the RMR study is to test different longevity experiments until we at least double the average remaining lifespan of middle-aged mice. This means that a mouse normally lives around 2,5 years but the aim is to extend their lifespan to 3,5 years with longevity treatment/s that are started at 1,5 years of age.

The thing I really like with this study is that it tries to discover powerful combinations of different longevity interventions. Why is combining interventions important? One reason for this is that with the right combination of interventions then most likely it will outperform a single longevity intervention. The tricky thing here is to find the right combination but for every new experiment that is done the field will learn, improve and increase its chances to make breakthrough discoveries that move the longevity needle. Therefore consider supporting the next iteration of the RMR study which will start this year.

Let’s take a look at the data from the RMR 1 study. In the below image you can see a toplist that I have created on the first iteration of the RMR study. The list is sorted by what works best in both genders. I have also added some additional ranking data to it around specific interventions potential as a cocktail ingredient. Here are my takeaways from this iteration.

  1. The mTOR inhibitor rapamycin seems to play a key role in several of the cocktail combinations. This data also supports my assumption why I think a mTOR inhibitor is a good base ingredient in the longevity cocktails that are engineered. I’m quite certain that there are better mTOR inhibitors than rapamycin and this is why I have been driving the project and fundraising together with Ora Biomedical around the largest mTOR inhibitor screening. This year we will get that project fully funded. Some people argue that a mTOR inhibitor is not an interesting intervention to solve aging because it just seems to just slow down the aging process. I fully agree that a mTOR inhibitor as a single intervention is not so interesting and it will not lead to any radical life extension. Maybe it can give us humans 5-15 years extra but that is just speculation. If we are going to solve aging then we need much more than that. But the very interesting thing with a mTOR inhibitor such as rapamycin, or the GSK2126458 (Omipalisib) which the Rapamycin Longevity Lab discovered last year, is their cocktail potential as a base ingredient. I would argue that it would be a big mistake to throw that potential away in the stage we currently are in. My goal is to see that we will find a better mTOR inhibitor than rapamycin and when we do that it would be great to use that compound also in future RMR iterations. Let’s see how things develop and what the data will show this year around the screening project.

  2. Some people argue that the longevity effects of different interventions are due to their effects on weight loss. Some photos of the different mice from the RMR study have been shown on conference talks by Aubrey de Grey and Caitlin Lewis and it looks like the controls without any treatment are much leaner than the treated mice (links to the talks in the comment section). The treated mice look even a bit overweight. In the conference talk with Caitlin she even confirms this by saying: “We don’t want them to be this big and some of the mice are pretty fat.” So one improvement they will do in the next RMR is to give all mice exercise wheels to decrease the risk for them to get overweight and by that the longevity effect will most likely also be even better. It would also be very interesting to improve the rapamycin arm by adding the glucose regulator acarbose to it. This is because rapamycin + acarbose is currently the best mice cocktail that the ITP (Intervention Testing Program) has discovered (pubmed: 36179270). So it would be great to continue to build combination treatments on that finding. I think that combo will also help the mice to keep a healthier weight. But regardless of what the very interesting thing that the RMR study has shown is that despite big weight gain the mice tend to live longer then no treated mice. I’m very curious to look more into this data when it is released.

  3. The gender differences in lifespan is interesting and this is also something that is seen in the different experiments done by the ITP. Currently rapamycin and calorie restriction seems to be the interventions that work really well in female mice. But so far it has been easier to find interventions that work well in male mice than in female mice. Why this is the case we don’t yet fully understand but it will be very interesting when we start to find interventions that extend female mice lifespan as well. If someone knows about an intervention that works really well in female mice please reach out!

  4. The last and more general takeaway that I started to think more and more about during last year is why the lifespan curves look like they do in different studies. In some cases median lifespan is good but not maximum lifespan or vice versa etc. This we can also see in the RMR study. One possible reason for this is that the dose regime which is used is not optimized. So if we for example see a reduction in maximum lifespan compared to median lifespan then it may be due to a too low or too high dose given late in life. I’m also doubtful that the optimal approach around many longevity interventions is to continue them until death. This is because in the late stage of life then the body is most likely in a quite fragile and broken state and I don’t believe the best thing here is for example to continue giving a mTOR inhibitor. My guess is that this pushes the body into a too catabolic state and by that it will increase the risk of a faster death. This year my plan is to write a paper around a theoretical framework which will suggest that a personalized treatment around an intervention throughout life most likely will result in better longevity effects than a fixed non-personalized treatment plan. The framework will use different biomarkers and measurements to give hints if the body is in a too anabolic or too catabolic state and where the sweet spot may be. But one big problem with animal lifespan studies is that it will be hard to implement and use this framework in a high-efficient and cost-effective way. Maybe it is easier to be used in human trials. Regardless of what the paper must be written :slightly_smiling_face:

PS 1. Visit the LEVF website for more information on how to support the upcoming RMR 2 study.

PS 2. Caitlin Lewis at Longevity Summit Dublin 2024

Aubrey de Grey at ARDD 2024

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This is speculation, perhaps right, perhaps wrong. But a couple of points. In rapamycin experiments on mice/rats (other animal models), the treatment continues until death. Yet this shows max LSE (lifespan extension). Are you suggesting that stopping the treatment at some point (old age?) would allow these animals to live even longer? That’s possible, but there is a counter argument. Namely, that even a short rapamycin treatment gives the mice almost the same benefit as lifelong (until death) exposure. But, note, crucially, not longer. I therefore find it unpersuasive that if the treatment was longer, but stopped in old age, it would suddenly make them live longer than if the treatment continued. Furthermore, you mention the mechanism that might make this shift advisable centers around mTOR. Well, CR is a potent mTOR inhibitor, and in CR experiments the animals that live the longest are on CR the longest and most severe, i.e. have their mTOR inhibited most strongly. Strike against that hypothesis.

I also disagree based on the mechanistic speculation (since we’re both speculating here!). I don’t think frailty is caused by mTOR inhibition. In fact, there are grounds to think the opposite. Rapamycin - and CR - preserve muscle function at any age (see: PEARL trial), and specifically in old age, even as an intervention against sarcopenia. Also, rapamycin is an immune modulator. Inflammaging is responsible for muscle tissue deterioration, and inflammaging leads to frailty. Rapamycin attenuates inflammaging - this is one of the primary mechanisms of operation by this drug and what is responsible in large part for its benefits. Inflammaging increases with age, and so the need for rapamycin increases with age - removing it will shorten the life of an old organism, not prolong it.

One needs to see the proper model of how frailty develops. It doesn’t develop because the body stops building muscle/bone/tissue in response to a failing signal from mTOR, and we need to increase the signal. Instead what happens is that there is less response to the signal. The mTOR is working fine and needs no boost, instead the signal is not responded to - likely in part due to systemic inflammation. We need to treat the systemic inflammation with rapamycin, CR, etc., and now the signal can get through. Also, please note - again, the PEARL trial (and other studies), just because rapamycin inhibits mTOR doesn’t mean you can’t build muscle - in the PEARL trial women on rapamycin built more muscle (and anecdotal reports from some members here seem to have the same effect). And there is no reason to think the same isn’t true for other tissues and in old people. In fact we have evidence for that - the Mannick trial… in old people rapamycin rejuvenated a whole system - the immune system (which is associated with longevity!).

Bottom line - my hypothesis is the opposite from your hypothesis. I think rapamycin is especially important in old age. I believe the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of my hypothesis and against your hypothesis. But of course, a hypothesis must be tested, and it should be easy enough to do in mice: have two cohorts, one lifelong rapamycin and one where it is withdrawn in old age. I place my bet fully (croupier, please put ALL my chips here!) on lifelong rapamycin - maybe even increase the dose in old age😁!

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So we know at this point that both rapa and cr work predictability to extend healthspan and lifespan in mice. Further it appears that even temporary cr or rapa treatment offers such benefits. What I’m not clear about is whether these benefits/changes can be passed to offsprings and if so what are these changes - genetic? epigenetic?

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Thanks for your feedback but I think there exist some misunderstandings around my theoretical framework. I will try to clarify some things. The first thing is that death does not need to be connected to old age. As an example on what I mean I will use the lifespan curve for male mice in the first ITP study on rapamycin that was published in 2009 (pubmed: 19587680). See image below

In this image we start to see mice are starting to die even before the treatment is started. The treatment starts at around 600 days. 25% of the mice have died quite young before the treatment starts and they keep dying. It would be very interesting to see the visual appearance of these mice when they are near death. My guess is that they in most cases are quite fragile, tired and in a sick state. I don’t think they die just suddenly in a state of good wellbeing. This reminds me of my both parents who died quite recently. My father died of aggressive cancer that was not possible to treat. He lost appetite, lost lots of muscle and was in bed and tired most of the time. My mother got dementia and on top of this she broke her hip and after that the aging process really accelerated. Not so long after that she lost appetite, her happiness and was tired most of the time. I’m quite skeptical that to take rapamycin in these stages is the right thing to do. This because they for example already lost their appetite and therefore they also get mTOR inhibition from calorie restriction. So to increase the mTOR inhibition by continuing giving rapamycin I think would increase the risk of getting them in to a too catabolic state.

It is not either recommended to practice for example catabolic interventions such as calorie restriction after a surgery or fractures because that may slow down the healing process. Therefore if a mouse gets its leg broken by an accident or something in the cage then it’s most likely good to take a pause in the rapamycin treatment until things have healed in a good way. The same thing if the mouse gets very sick then it’s probably good to take a pause in rapamycin intake. My guess is that you also take pauses in your rapamycin intake if you are not feeling good or something is not right? If I would for example get a bacterial infection then I would absolutely take a pause from rapamycin. The same thing if I would get a broken leg or a severe wound or something else that signals that my body needs recovery (activation of anabolic processes).

This can also be compared to exercise. Exercise activates catabolic processes during the workout. So when we exercise and challenges are bodies then in some cases we may feel that our body really needs extra recovery time. When the body signals things like this then it’s not good to just keep pushing and not listen to the body. In the short term it may work to push the body regardless of these signals but in the long term it will have detrimental effects. So the same way we listen to our body when it comes to adjusting our exercise I think we should also adjust our other longevity protocols like rapamycin intake. Or what are your thoughts around this? Do you never do any adjustments in your longevity protocols based on different situations in your life?

So it’s not about stopping rapamycin intake fully. It’s just to take a pause if there are signals that point towards that direction.

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OK, but that’s not what you wrote in the passage I quoted. Now you are saying that if you become sick while on rapa, stop rapa. That’s a completely different thing, because what - old age itself is like getting sick, so you should stop rapa regardless in old age? Sorry, that’s incoherent. These are completely separate things. One is stopping rapa when sick - which by the way is not 100% clear in every situation, because for example we have studies showing that those who did best were the subjects who took rapa before, during and after getting a vaccine, compared to those who stopped rapa before or after the vaccine, meaning when that type of health challenge happens, it’s best to stay on rapa. Also, before surgery, it is often better to go on rapa or exercise, or low protein (mTOR inhibition), or 24/48 hour fast (mTOR inhibition) and that mTOR inhibition enhances recovery and you do better with the procedure. Now that’s not true for all situations of course, with some, like perhaps a bacterial infection, it is better to go off rapa. But that is not old age. Old age is not a condition that needs you to go off rapa or off mTOR inhibitors, we have studies showing that. Rapa and CR help with inflammaging so we keep on with rapa - now if you get sick with a bacterial infection regardless of age, so including when you are old, yes, there will be circumstances when it is better to be off rapa - but that’s a different situation than simply getting off rapa at a certain date just because you’re old. Sorry, I can’t see what your point is.

I maintain, that evidence shows that it’s best to stay on rapa, especially in old age, and only go off rapa in specific situations, such as bacterial infections - but that is true regardless of age. Otherwise stay on rapa (or other suitable mTOR inhibitors like CR). As to mice/organisms getting frail and sick early - well, they wouldn’t get sick and frail early if they were on rapa, as the graphs you posted show, so that kind of proves the point, not sure what you were trying to argue.

Rapa, early, rapa late, rapa always - at least that’s what the evidence seems to show (with breaks at times of certain health challenges).

Rapa intermittently, but not always.

You should stop Rapa in the case of bacterial infection, before surgery or after a wound which needs to heal.

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Yes, absolutely. And a reminder: rapamycin, like any drug, does not work for everyone. There will be those for whom rapamycin will be contraindicated. There is not a single intervention or drug that is good for absolutely everyone, and rapamycin is no different.

But otherwise, rapa is definitely a good thing. All we have to do is look a that graph Krister showed in his last post. That’s an argument for maintaining rapa - after all, it would be absurd to somehow suggest that those on rapa, who the graph shows benefit from rapa, should quit rapa, so they can join the graph of those who don’t get rapa and show no benefit, lol! At no point in those graphs does the “no rapa” graph cross over and outperforms the “rapa” graph. So why would you ever abandon rapa at any point, including old age??

It is especially important to keep rapamycin treatment in old age, for reasons mentioned in the paper Caveatmtor posted in the thread he started: “An aged immune system drives senescence and ageing of solid organs” where we have this quote: “These data demonstrate that an aged, senescent immune system has a causal role in driving systemic ageing and therefore represents a key therapeutic target to extend healthy ageing.” So if the pathologies of aging are caused at least in part by a senescent immune system, it is all the more important to use rapamycin to be as the quote says “a key therapeutic target to extend healthy ageing”. You want to age better, you better use rapamycin or any other agent to extend healthy aging by affecting the aging of the immune system. This is the exact, polar opposite of Krister’s hypothesis that we should abandon rapamycin as aging is equivalent in effect to a bacterial infection or recovery from surgery and healing… the exact opposite is true. Aging is not like a specific sickness or surgery recovery. Aging is a deterioration that can be ameliorated and the senescent immune system rescued by agents like rapamycin. Older=better on rapamycin.

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