well said. Myself I’m in the upper range of average (for 60-69 age group) per your table. VO2 max comes from the fitness app on my apple watch. I suspect my VO2 max was throughout my life either average or even a bit below average as a teenager. That said, I have not met a person in the last ten years in my age group who is as quick ( can move as quickly and with such quick reflexes) as healthy and as flexible as myself. Further, I very rarely see people of any age who can match me in these respects. In conclusion, maybe some of us are not made to be top tier fitness performers and trying to obsessively focus on max VO2 performance vs the balance - CR+ rapa+ daily moderate exercise is just counterproductive?
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I agree that max performance, like dosage of a drug, has to be applied astutely to the individual over decades to see how it plays out for long-term health. For myself - being non-elite, I would train for a marathon and when my weekly miles hit 39 - on the button - I would get an overuse injury. So I seem to be built more for comfort, and not athletic excellence. An example of an elite performer who seems to have done well is Tom Brady. Professional football is all about physical abuse and training - he beat that normality through some unique insights to pliability etc.
But the examples of elite athletes who seem to have overdone it seems to be a long list: Bill Rodgers dropped off a cliff - he was a phenomenal runner and also master level runner. But he hit a wall. Hal Higdon, an elite runner and well known for his marathon training programs ran 7 marathons in 7 weeks @ 70 years old for charity, and he fell off a cliff. And in my own age group for runners, the drop of participants is staggering. If you think about it, folks now retired with the time and wealth to pursue an athletic pursuit they have coveted all their life, and they disappeared from these events.
What I am trying to pass on to athletic folks in their 50, what they perceive as longevity benefits via their training methods and load, may not work out for them as expected.
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These are case studies. I also know plenty of athletes the over-trained and burned out.
But this is why we have huge studies with clear evidence for benefits of exercise. BTW, Very high Vo2 max doesn’t mean over-training, people that do not train properly do not reach very high Vo2 max.
So for those nay-sayer and doubters I say… show me the evidence. Show me the studies. Otherwise, you are just stating opinions, some based on case studies which is bottom of the barrel evidence.
Lost
#94
Sure thing – I don’t know of any similar studies to the point, but that one has it’s share of weaknesses. You can reasonably claim that brain training extends life, and that early heavy exercise independently extends life. Or you could argue that something in the social status or psychology of highly successful individuals does. I’m not aware of any evidence to distinguish between these hypotheses, though.
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Preponderance of studies and evidence are in favor of exercise, even the study that you posted…
…RS analysis showed that both GMs and OMs had a significant survival advantage over the general population…
I don’t think anyone here is arguing against that point. Only the amount needed to favor healthspan/lifespan.
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Dr.Bart
#97
That’s the key, right?. One study says that benefits maxes out at 10 hours per week of moderate exercise, another says the higher the Vo2 the better. Professional athletes spend 15-40 hours/week depending on the sport. Of course that is their only job !
I respect your perspective. I certainly agree with your view about the value of exercise. I am differing though on the value of elite athleticism into old age.
5k race participation by age (other distances available). 133 stats on 5K running races in the US | RunRepeat You can see the drop off of 5k runners. The table below shows participation rates for male runners as a percentage. Believe me when I tell you the drop is much more extreme starting at age 65.
My conjecture is that certain type of training over time will result in trade-offs. It simply is surprising that I am now on the podium for the first time based primarily on the attrition of runners or triathletes who prior to this point were the elites.
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Help me understand what exactly the table above is telling us? I’m not sure what the percentages are referencing…
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This is a table of participation trends by age group of 5k race runners. Below is a line graph version.
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JKPrime
#101
She didn’t include one table/summary that illustrates her point that now she is able to place in that race higher as people are dropping off, looks like the younger are dropping off more, and those who are staying behind are slower. The summary of findings is shown below:
- The younger female participants have slowed down more than the older ones in general.
- The youngest female participants have slowed down by 12% (from 34:30 to 38:38 min).
- The ones in their 20s have slowed down by 8.1% (from 35:51 to 38:44 min).
- The ones in their 30s have slowed down by 10.7% (from 36:21 to 40:13 min).
- The ones in their 40s have slowed down by 7.3% (from 38:51 to 41:40 min).
- The participants in their 50s have slowed down by just 0.3% (from 43:48 to 43:57 min).
- The participants over 60 have slowed down just by 1.5% (from 47:58 to 48:41 min).
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I am in the male category JK. (long story). And what I am pointing out is that the participation rate at age 60 declines rapidly and severely across a range of running distances. So what happened to all the participants up to this point of age? They dropped out for some reason. They didn’t all drop dead.
So I find this disturbing. You show up at a race at a certain age and by default you podium just by showing up.
Given this topic’s subject, “The tide turns on VO2max?” - I see this drop-off as possible evidence that trying to maximize training could lead to this type of drop-off of participation happening. On the other hand, these drop-outs could be very healthy and just doing other activities. Pickle ball comes to mind.
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JKPrime
#103
Right. You are basically raising concern in the context of the VO2 maxing as optimal strategy for longevity that it may not be sustainable and people both males and females drop off. I share your sentiment. In my mind a better idea is to make sure that you do your minimum 2 minutes everyday of either running at any pace or skipping the rope to protect your bones. weightlifting won’t work here by itself as you need an impact exercise. Not everybody will be motivated to do more. Also doing more may be nice, but at certain point depending on your exercise skill set and your body, the marginal benefit of the next unit of exercise will not exceed its cost. The cost may be a risk of injury combined with how much more you value your other activities.
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Dr.Bart
#104
I don’t get your conclusions here, these are literally the statements below the graph you posted.
- The sharpest decline in male participation is among the participants between 20 and 50.
- There’s an increase among the male participants over 60.
similar for the women participation
- The biggest decline in participation in the last 5 years is among the women in their 20s and 30s.
- The only age group that has increased continuously is of the participants over 50.
So the drop off for males is between 20-50 and just the opposite over 60, not sure if this proves anything but certainly exercise does not see to be harming older people… it’s probably helping them to stay active for longer… seems like a longevity promoting factor to me.
Exactly right. It’s all about healthspan, both for Peter Attia and me. I don’t know how much control I have over lifespan, but I don’t want to be immobile, or have sarcopenia.
That being said, I think it’s important to find some activity that is not just like taking your medicine, but is something you enjoy doing. While it is good for your brain to do things that you perceive as hard and that you don’t necessarily want to do, it’s unlikely that you will continue that activity very long, and consistency is the most important part of this.
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Lost
#106
The statements in the 5k article are referring to changes in participation over time. I agree the data presented have little relevance to our discussion here, but for fun what I’d speculate is that there was a boom in 5k popularity in the early 2010’s (a quick Google search seems to support this). The boom affected all ages, and those people kept participating over time, minus some attrition due to aging. But over the succeeding decade the runners who started in 2012 got shifted to older age brackets, explaining the decline in all but the oldest bracket.
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Another “fun” speculative perspective is that 5k runs are a little old school compared to what is available now. Mud runs, obstacle courses etc. I didn’t see anything at runrepeat.com beyond 2018 in terms of participation, but I would imagine those types of events are cutting into participation generationally.
Bicep
#109
I don’t know, Lustgarten makes it sound like 6 years of gain isn’t much. I disagree with that. My wife says the same thing, “you may live longer, but you spend the whole time working out”.
1 hour per week X 52 weeks is about 4 (12 hour) days lost per year. So if you work out like that for 25 years, that’s a third of a year lost, but you gain 6 years? Good deal. The other thing is that everything you do is easier when you’re fit. I can put on my socks while I’m walking down the hall in the morning. Since I don’t drink coffee and can skip breakfast, really I can get up 4 minutes before I need to be in the car. Really if it only takes a half hour twice a week, then this is the way to go.
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Yes there’s tradeoffs. Obviously a huge difference whether you love the time spent exercising or consider it merely as a cost. Remember that 5-6 year difference is between the most fit and the least fit though. If you’re somewhere in between fitness wise you’re not leaving 5-6 years on the table but less, possibly not leaving anything at all depending on other factors. It also depends on goals for old age. I am not climbing mountains today and don’t plan to start in my 80s and 90s. I just want to be able to walk a lot without being knackered, pick up my own grandkid or great grandkid, lift my own suitcases… and really, most of all, not be demented. I might even end up exercising more heavily than my personal longevity calculus dictates if the evidence for dementia prevention warrants it.
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