Just to point out, for most blood tests, the reference ranges are designed about you not drinking before the test. When I worked in haematology, the instructions were to take blood samples on the morning and the patient should not have eaten or drank anything for at least 8 hours.

So I would question whether it’s possible that your creatinine actually is elevated, and drinking a bunch of water before the test is gaming the results and “falsely” lowering you into the normal range.

Same here. I’ve used creatine for at least 20 years, probably 10+ different brands. Creatine monohydrate simply has no taste, smell or anything else for me. The standard stuff is just like a tasteless sand. The ultra fine powder stuff is like tasteless flour.

As for the topic of the thread: I take 5g per day, every day, taken whenever. That’s what the vast vast majority of research uses and what the vast majority of athletes do. There was a whole thing about “loading” with 20g per day, but it’s not necessary. You don’t need to split doses unless 5g really upsets your stomach. There’s also no difference in taking it pre-working, post-working etc. Just take it approximately once every day. The water retention varies between people, and it’s not an unwanted adverse effect - it’s a part of the mechanism of action.

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OK, so I asked my BFF, Grok. I posed my own backpacking scenario, where each morning I shoveled 5 grams of powder in my mouth, and then washed it down with a quart of water. I had it compared to the same 5g fully dissolved in 220ml water at 37c temp. The solubility is more than 2x, but that has no meaningful effect as to what is delivered into the bloodstream. The difference is miniscule.

I then asked to apply the same comparison to the ‘take one hour before weightlifting’ scenario. The ‘peak’ from the ‘shovel and wash down’ approach is perhaps a few minutes later and slightly lower than the warm water approach, but Grok estimated the impact at perhaps one tenth rep on a ten rep set.

That’s what Grok says, YMMV.

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Is this a LLM? Wouldn’t this just regurgitate a summary of info on the internet both good and bad data? Or are you able to feed in the source data you want the answer based on? My personal experience is the LLMs sound great (nice presentation) but the conclusions are only as good as the source data.

As far as creatine goes, it is one of very few supplements that actually does anything for me. Making it work better is worth more than 10 more supplements that don’t do anything as far as I can tell.

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Here’s the details. What do you think? Sound legit, or no?




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Nice presentation. I have no idea if it is right except that two experts on creating have said that absorption can be a problem: when taking a lot at one time, if the creatine is not fully solubilized in the fluid, both said to take with food to get higher absorption.

These statements seem inconsistent with your LLM conclusions. I’ll go with the human being experts for now.

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[quote=“Joseph_Lavelle, post:12, topic:14643”]
brain
[/quote

When experimenting a new molecule, I find value in adding contrary or null findings in the rational (just in case): “Sleep deprivation elevates circulating creatine levels in healthy adults: a pilot study.” Sleep deprivation elevates circulating creatine levels in healthy adults: a pilot study | Sleep and Biological Rhythms

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@Raquel what do you make of this finding?

Hi Joseph, at first, I was surprised when I saw Sergej M. Ostojic as one of the investigators. He is a prominent researcher in creatine metabolism and nutrition and, like many, has documented ties to companies involved in creatine products. I was surprise and delighted, I should say.
Studies about creatine-brain are still confusing to me (brain blood barrier, chronic high doses, much more than you would eat on a considered super health diet. Plus, I see the benefits occurring in women, not so often in men) but bloggers or media just read what serves them and this is frustrating.
I am trying to answer you while I don’t make so many English mistakes here, hold on: my views don´t sell well because I keep seeing in all kinds of beings that there´s not one formula for all and not even one formula for the same person during its entire life. The organism change. Life if full of nuance and so biology. The pilot study’s findings are fascinating (but no MRS or cognitive tests) because they challenge the assumption that sleep deprivation universally depletes circulating creatine due to increased brain demand.
It is a very small study (n=22) for any conclusion but it is interesting that it suggests that sleep deprivation may trigger a systemic INCREASE (I am not yelling haha) in creatine (significant but still within physiological range; and serum creatine, not brain creatine), possibly as a protective mechanism to support energy metabolism under stress.
My brain thinks of survival mode. It may activate some redundancy path, which I admire.

This does not negate the possible benefits of creatine supplementation to the brain observed in other studies… but the “contrary” finding seems to show a more nuanced take between sleep-creatine metabolism-brain function.

[Also, honestly, I have many more questions than opinion or answers. Just so you have an idea, I still have questions regards this actual current thinking that everyone needs to sleep for 7-8 hours without interruption, without any minimal light, the use of black outs, red light, etc. Maybe it could be perfect, ok, but historically (DNA)… some pieces don’t seem to fit. And regards creatine, in nature there are days or weeks without meat (or other nutrient/food), so I also question chronic supplementations in high doses (some people take it with water, isolated).]
But your turn. What do you make of this finding, please.

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@Raquel Yes, it is interesting and hard to understand. My guess is that the body is freeing up creatine for the brain to use more when the brain needs help. Food sources are always better than oils or powders but I take extra in powder form because it gives me a boost.

Now that I have quit caffeine, a poor nights sleep is a problem that creatine can help with.

You mention sleep. I just interviewed Marijn van de Laar PhD, author of sleep like a caveman. He is a researcher and a sleep clinician so he knows what works. He questions the same things you question. Instead of cavemen he studied the sleep habits of the Hadza. Not too many blackout curtains, or cold mattresses. And few sleep straight through the night. They get 6-6.5 hours of sleep total, not 7-9 as we are told to get. They just don’t stress about their sleep. My Oura ring is back in my desk drawer.

I’ll publish it very soon.

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Hi, Joseph, I just visited your profile, I didn’t know you are a professional in the area! Sorry about your sleep.
Well, too many questions in my brain now, so let me just tell you this tiny hypothesis of mine, in case it rings some bell to you regards your sleep experiment:

Since I have planted a Gingko biloba tree I became curious about its compounds. It calls my attention to see how often it is present in old times prescriptions, in small amounts. Some modern supplements studies add a small portion of Gingko too, and when seeing it, first, I was like “what a waste”, then, “there’s something here.”
Reading the studies, I observe Gingko has the ability to augment NO, to improve blood flow, BBB and neuronal activity. These characteristics, among others, tell me that it may help transport molecules to the brain…
No, there’s not one single study about Gingko and creatine (I suspect that creatine is not the one to help your sleep. Apart from plant based diets populations, trials didn’t show me relevance of extra creatine for men’s brain yet, but I’ve missed some studies.)
However, adding some functional and safe molecule that could help the brain to uptake molecules, including creatine, is not such a bad idea for some time to experiment.
I tried the hyphotesis creatine-Gingko on Grok out of curiosity how crazy I may be:
"Theoretical Synergy:
Creatine crosses the BBB via the creatine transporter (CRT, SLC6A8), but its uptake is limited in adults due to low BBB permeability. Ginkgo’s ability to improve cerebral blood flow and reduce oxidative stress could enhance CRT function or increase creatine delivery to brain capillaries.

"Ginkgo’s BDNF upregulation (e.g., ~0.5 ng/mg protein increase) could support neuronal energy metabolism, potentially increasing demand for creatine.

“Bilobalide’s mitochondrial protection may synergize with creatine’s role in buffering ATP, enhancing energy availability.”

There’s more into it but time is running and I better go before I sound way too crazy;) as I am new in this community.

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@Raquel so, the idea is to take Gingko with creatine to get more creative into the brain? I haven’t heard of that idea. Will you try it?

So I finally finished watching the Rhonda Patrick and Darren Candow video. According to him, good ole creatine monohydrate is nearly completely absorbed. I am not sure on what basis does Kre-Alkalyn maker make the claim that their absorption is 3x over regular cr. monohydrate which according to them turns in to creatinine in the intestines. Here is a good article on this.

So their 1.5 grams is not equivalent to 4.5 grams of unbuffered creatine monohydrate. So when I take 4.5 grams of Kre-Alkalyn it’s probably just 4.5 grams. It’s hard to believe that they can get away with such egregious false advertising. I have GERD so I naturally gravitate towards alkaline forms, but in this case it’s probably just a waste of money.

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@Dr.Bart Masterjohn is the only source for your conclusions? Watch the Rhonda Patrick recent video / podcast on creatine.

Sorry, meant to say Dr. Darren Candow from the Rhonda Patrick podcast. The name in the title threw me off.

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@Dr.Bart He was good. My take on the non creatine monohydrate products is they are worth trying if you get stomach upset or bloating from creatine mono. Plenty of people do. In addition, based on a study I read during my interview prep that creatine mono can be broken down into creatinine if it gets too acidic (citric acid) or too hot (boiling water). Still, every credible muscle scientist says creatine mono is the best so I still use it buying from good brands. I recently bought some on sale from iHerb (their white label) and it gave me a stomach ache every time I used it. (iHerb refunded my money). I also use the hottest water I can chug for solubility, and I take with food. Even Rhonda’s guy said with food was a good idea. I don’t think we can conclude CON-CRET (they also make mono) is lying but I’m not paying extra to get the HCL variety. I’m taking 10 grams a day in 4 doses. It’s a big help now that caffeine is out of my diet.

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I just wonder if I was under-dosing with Kre-Alk with 4.5 mg thinking it was closer to 15 mg.

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Creatine does break down into creatinine more quickly when exposed to heat, especially in boiling water[3]. If you dissolve creatine in warm or hot water, it should be consumed soon after mixing or stored cold to minimize this degradation. Boiling water with creatine already in it is not recommended, as significant breakdown into creatinine can occur if heated for an extended period (such as an hour)[1]. Mixing creatine into hot drinks like coffee or tea is generally fine if consumed promptly, but avoid boiling creatine in water[1][3].

Citations:
[1] Mixing creatine in hot water? Okay or no? : r/bodybuilding - Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/bodybuilding/comments/2vk2vz/mixing_creatine_in_hot_water_okay_or_no/
[2] Can I take creatine in hot water? #shorts | Myprotein - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QANklXs39Os
[3] Water, milk, orange juice, coffee… What to take creatine with? Water, milk, orange juice, coffee... What to take creatine with?
[4] How should I take creatine? - Creapure How should I take creatine?
[5] Bioavailability, Efficacy, Safety, and Regulatory Status of Creatine … Bioavailability, Efficacy, Safety, and Regulatory Status of Creatine and Related Compounds: A Critical Review - PMC
[6] Common questions and misconceptions about creatine … Common questions and misconceptions about creatine supplementation: what does the scientific evidence really show? - PMC
[7] Is Creatine Safe? And More Side Effect FAQs - Healthline FAQs About Creatine Side Effects

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Mixing creatine with citric acid (such as in citrus juice) does not rapidly break down creatine into creatinine. Research and supplement industry experience show that creatine is stable in mildly acidic solutions like those containing citric acid for several hours-well beyond the time it would typically be consumed[6]. The myth that citric acid immediately degrades creatine is not supported by evidence; in fact, the acidity of your stomach is much stronger than that of citric acid, and creatine survives this environment[5][6].

Additionally, studies have shown that creatine and citric acid can form stable compounds and cocrystals, which are used in supplement formulations without significant creatinine formation[10][11]. In manufacturing processes, creatine-citric acid mixtures maintained creatinine levels below detectable limits[10].

In summary: mixing creatine with citric acid is safe, and it does not cause rapid or significant breakdown into creatinine under normal usage conditions[5][6][10].

Citations:
[1] Revisiting the solid-state landscape of creatine citric acid: A salt or a … Revisiting the solid-state landscape of creatine citric acid: A salt or a cocrystal? - PubMed
[2] Creatine Citric Acid Cocrystals or Creatine Citrate Salts, That Is the … 2023 AIChE Annual Meeting
[3] Citric Acid & Creatine : r/Fitness - Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/116fc1/citric_acid_creatine/
[4] Mechanosynthesis of a Co-Amorphous Formulation of Creatine with … https://aim.autm.net/public/project/71327/
[5] Can creatine and citrus be combined? nutrition - Can creatine and citrus be combined? - Physical Fitness Stack Exchange
[6] Will mixing creatine with lemon juice reduce uptake? - Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/StrongerByScience/comments/11yreif/supplement_question_will_mixing_creatine_with/
[7] [PDF] Mechanosynthesis of a Coamorphous Formulation of Creatine with … https://chemrxiv.org/engage/api-gateway/chemrxiv/assets/orp/resource/item/60c75048bb8c1a85623dbab7/original/mechanosynthesis-of-a-coamorphous-formulation-of-creatine-with-citric-acid-and-humidity-mediated-transformation-into-a-cocrystal.pdf
[8] Revisiting the solid-state landscape of creatine citric acid: A salt or a … https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022354925000395
[9] [PDF] Mechanosynthesis of a Coamorphous Formulation of Creatine with … https://s3.smu.edu/dedman/catco/publications/pdf/440.pdf
[10] US20040077719A1 - Creatine/citric acid compound, method for the … US20040077719A1 - Creatine/citric acid compound, method for the production of the same and the use thereof - Google Patents
[11] Mechanosynthesis of a Coamorphous Formulation of Creatine with … https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.cgd.0c01560

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Let me try to be clear.

First, I repeat, I don’t know how creatine can help your sleep. I saw it may help some women’s cognition and depression, not men. From the findings so far (still awaiting studies), my take is that women’s creatine intake is suboptimal and/or its turnover may be faster than in men but evidence is limited.

2- I used the Ginkgo example as a “transporter helper” but maybe not for creatine itself. You can take this example and investigate with another molecule for yourself, your condition, during the present moment of your life. The BBB is very selective and each individual has its own permeability level (hence, maybe another confounding factor among the studies that test brain molecules).

3- Yes, sometimes I add a little dose of Ginkgo extract in my formula (brain). Dose has varied through the years, including big pauses.

4- Good quality Gingko is not cheap nowadays, at least down here. Traditionally, the tree was very popular so I suspect it was affordable for Traditional Chinese Medicine use.

5- Compared to the old days when it was often prescribed, the environment has changed drastically. Excess of toxins, e.g., can disrupt the BBB and gut. The same prescriptions that would work greatly in the past, maybe not so good for many people nowadays. Full of confounding factors. We need to adapt. Although, it seems it still can help patients with cognitive impairments. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3233/JAD-140837

6- I notice some interesting features among the several studies on the extract for brain health. Leaving creatine (close but) behind (because I am biased against the idea of creatine to your brain! - unless you are into plant based diet…), this animal study showed a possibility of G. biloba to improve the passage of molecules through the BBB, in quantities necessary for neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer’s. According to Liang et al. (2020), GBE potentially activates gap junctions and improves the paracellular permeability of the BBB via adenosine receptor activation. This could promote the distribution of Ginseng’s active components in the brain tissue. Furthermore, previous studies have shown that the flavone in GBE may be a P-glycoprotein inhibitor, which may aid in increasing the concentration of co-administered medicines in the brain (Zhang et al. 2015a; Fan et al. 2009).

This discussion can be a long one… Have you heard of Shuxuening injection?
Shuxuening injection (SXNI) is derived from the leaf of Ginkgo biloba L. (Ginkgoaceae), and the effective components are flavonoids, bilobalide and ginkgolides (Wang et al. 2019). SXNI is widely used to treat ischaemic cardiovascular and cerebrovascular diseases, coronary heart disease, angina pectoris, cerebral embolism and cerebral vasospasm diseases clinically in China (Wang et al. 2019; Cao et al. 2020). Dilation of the blood vessels and function improvement of the microcirculation are the main efficacy of SXNI. Shuxuening injection, derived from Ginkgo biloba leaf, induced pseudo-allergic reactions through hyperactivation of mTOR - PMC

Many studies through this path.
PLEASE, I am not affirming anything. All I have written here all hypothesis, ok.

Microcirculation, we need to pay attention about it. Molecules that acts on your macro circulation are not difficult to find. The challenge (IMO) is microcirculation.
Hearing, which can go down with aging is associated to cognition and microcirculation. If you research, you will find studies using SXNI for sudden hearing loss. (I get very excited with this possibility! It’s tough to get old and not being able to enjoy music and to listen nature)

Oh, regards the injection (not extract) this study found the mechanism of the pseudo-allergic reactions some may feel.
As rapamycin is an mTOR inhibitor that can affect the mTOR-VEGF pathway:

Shuxuening injection, derived from Ginkgo biloba leaf, induced pseudo-allergic reactions through hyperactivation of mTOR

“Our work indicates that mTOR-VEGF pathway is hyperactivated in SXNI induced pseudo-allergic reactions, and rapamycin might be a potentially drug to prevent SXNI mediated pseudo-allergic reactions.”

It’s a super fun rabbit hole.
Can we extrapolate this rational to help creatine enter the brain? I haven’t seen studies about that yet…

Before anything, of course, I am presuming you have checked your hormone levels and are doing the basics (before diving into brain molecules). For me, a good old sauna is the best for my sleep.

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