#41

I’ve never heard of Chelation therapy helping to remove plaque and calcium. Can you direct me to this study or literature?

#42

@Pestodude It’s the link to the paper listed in the first post of this thread; the link is below:

Most of the discussion appears to revolve around this study, as aside from anecdotes, there is little research on this.

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#43

FWIW I believe most cardiologists regard chelation as quackery.

Chelation therapy after the Trial to Assess Chelation Therapy: results of a unique trial - PMC (nih.gov)

The trial to assess chelation therapy was a $30 million National Institutes of Health-funded study of the safety and efficacy of EDTA-based chelation infusions in 1708 post-myocardial infarction (MI) patients. The trial to assess chelation therapy demonstrated a significant (P = 0.035) 18% reduction in a combined primary endpoint of death, MI, stroke, coronary revascularization, or hospitalization for angina. In diabetic patients the benefit was more extreme, with a 41% relative reduction in risk (P = 0.0002) and a 43% reduction in total mortality (P = 0.011). Safety data were favorable. A reduction of oxidative stress by chelation of toxic metals has been proposed as a possible mechanism of action.

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#44

Sorry @Dexter_Scott , I’m a bit slow today. I breezed through the paper you attached. The author wrote “ Chelation therapy with disodium EDTA has been in use for the treatment of atherosclerotic disease for 58 years. During most of that period, many medical organizations have declared it to be unsafe and relegated the treatment to the realm of alternative medicine. ” but then show results which looked interesting to me.

So are you saying that doctors find it quackery but it still has a meaningful impact? Or are you saying doctors find it quackery because it is quackery?

Also, is Nattokinase a chelating agent? Or is it some to Ing else? It seems from the attached paper that it may be more complex. (I can’t speak for the quality of the paper, but I was simply looking to answer the question of whether Nattokinase was a chelating agent)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674638423000564

3. Pharmacological actions of natto

3.1. Thrombolytic effects

In 1987, an alkaline protease was extracted and isolated from natto for the first time, which was named as nattokinase (NK) and its molecular formula is C20H23BCl2N2O9 (Sumi, Hamada, Tsushima, Mihara, & Muraki, 1987). It was confirmed that NK has a strong effect of thrombus dissolution through the dog thrombosis model. Current researches showed that the thrombolytic mechanism of NK mainly includes five aspects (Chen, Sha, Ren, Xi, & Wang, 2003; Weng, Yao, Sparks, & Wang, 2017): (1) Dissolving thrombus by directly dissolving fibrin (skeleton structures of thrombus). Studies have shown that NK can directly act on the enzyme cleavage sites of cross-linked fibrin thrombus len-tyr and Ser-hrs to hydrolyze long-chain skeleton fibrin into soluble small molecules, so as to directly dissolve thrombus. (2) Inhibition of platelet aggregation. NK can reduce the elevated levels of thromboxane (B2) and prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) in the plasma of the model group, and increase the level of 6-keto-prostaglandin F1α (6-K-PGF1α) to prevent platelet aggregation and inhibit the formation of thrombosis (Yan, Feng, Xu, & Wu, 2021). Furthermore, preincubating NK and platelet for 10 min in buffer solution could inhibit the increase of Ca2+ induced by thrombin to repress platelet aggregation (Ji et al., 2014). (3) NK stimulates vascular endothelial cells to produce tissue-type plasminogen activator (t-PA) and inhibit the production of plasminogen activator inhibitor-1 (PAI-1) of endothelial cells (Ji et al., 2014, Yatagai et al., 2007). As shown in Fig. 1, t-PA activates fibrinogen in vivo to form fibrinolytic enzymes, which dissolve fibrin emboli. T-PA is about 6–7 ng/mL in a normal body, while it is detected to be more than 10 ng/mL 4 h after oral NK. Therefore, it can be inferred that NK can play a thrombolytic role by stimulating the body to produce T-PA and increasing fibrinolytic activity. In addition, a study has shown that the dose dependence of PAI-1 content decreased with the increase of NK concentration in a certain range of concentration, which indicated that to a certain degree NK might play antithrombotic role through reducing the PAI-1 secretion level of endothelial cells (Shah & Minocheherhomji, 2022). (4) Catalyzing the conversion of prourokinase to urokinase. It has been suggested that NK can also activate prourokinase to produce urokinase, another fibrinogen activator, to accelerate thrombolysis in vivo(Weng, Yao, Sparks, & Wang, 2017). (5) In addition, the multifunctional cationic peptides from natto extracts exhibit angiogenic activities in tube formation assays, which indicated that the bioactive peptides potentially contribute to antithrombotic effects (Taniguchi et al., 2019).

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#45

Personally, I prefer Lumbrokinase instead of Nattokinase as Nattokinase contains phytoestrogens, and is reported to cause a somewhat significant increase of estrogen in the body. I understand Natttokinase as an enzyme does not contain that much soy particles , however, just for personal preference as I am a male , I prefer taking something not sourced from a fermented soybean.

During the peak of covid, I was going through several bottles a month as instructed in the directions. Keep in mind that Lumbrokinase is generally very expensive and it adds up to about $300 - $400 a month. There are probably more affordable alternatives. Here is the one I take:

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#46

Sorry for the off-topic question, @tfl.phd , but do soy-based products impact male hormonal balances? I’ve definitely heard this from a number of sources but none with any human research (it’s been a while since I searched this up). I’ve also heard that the estrogen-like soy compounds are chemically different and don’t signal or metabolize in the same way in humans as estrogen, but again no real research behind this. From what I found a year ago, I’ve chalked this up to the religious dietary beliefs and now simply ignore comments on this (life is too short for this argument, even with Rapamycin). I eat a lot of meat and little soy at this point in my life (and although not necessarily a marker of longevity, I “feel” better) so you aren’t hurting my feelings. I also believe I have been producing more natural testosterone from my heavy weightlifting (I never measured the baseline so not sure taking a measurement now is useful) and wouldn’t want to lose some of these benefits. Just curious.

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#47

Men still have a significant amount of estrogen, albeit in lower amounts than women. So when ingesting soy based products, which contain phytoestrogens, those phytoestrogens mimic estrogen and bind to the estrogen receptors in the body which influence hormone signaling. Specifically, they effect the HPG axis which regulates the production of sex hormones like testosterone and estrogen.

Some studies conclude that “high intakes of phytoestrogens, particularly from soy-based products, may lead to a slight decrease in testosterone levels in men”. Some studies have also reported potential effects on sperm quality and function. Of course that is not preferred.

Some people are more sensitive than others to phytoestrogens but because it is better not to find out the hard way, I stay far away from soy products just to be safe. I have no reason to include them in my diet.
And because there is an alternative to Nattokinase, with pretty strong evidence backing up the use of Lumbrokinase, I do not see the need to choose Nattokinase over Lumbrokinase.

I have a similiar diet and lifestyle to yours. (which is great by the way). My testosterone has greatly improved and I just feel I function better eating meat.
I eat a lot of meat but mostly try to eat wild meat (venison, bison, elk …). Leaner meats in my opinion are better if you don’t know the exact source of the meat. This is because when animals are exposed to certain environmental pollutants, pesticides, heavy metals, or other toxins, their bodies stores it in adipose tissue (fat). So , if you consume meat with a higher fat content, you potentially ingest a greater concentration of these accumulated toxins.
Eating leaner meats, which have lower fat content, reduces potential exposure to such toxins because the amount of fat consumed is negligible.

Lmk if you have any questions

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#48

I had a thought about Nattokinase and a couple other substances recently - why does there seem to be a mismatch between the officially recommended dose on the bottle and the much larger dose many suggest online?

I wonder if it’s because these are blood thinners? Perhaps manufacturers are intentionally minimizing their recommendations because they don’t want to be responsible for complications related to blood thinning - a possible risk especially if one is taking other blood thinners (eg, aspirin or Warfarin).

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#49

I would note that, as far as I saw, there was a paper (I believe a Chinese study) which specified 10,000 units of Nattokinase as driving positive changes in atherosclerosis (for a pretty big cohort). I think I linked it above in several places. But that was the only “research” I found.

I’d also guess the manufacturers don’t really know. Natto itself is widely consumed, but Nattokinase is a very small portion of this, so at small doses it is clearly safe. I’d bet manufacturers just ran with that as their logic. But I don’t know conclusively.

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#50

I’ve been taking it for years. Initially got about four months for a deep cleanse. That was 3 pills 3 times a day. For the last 15 years I pulse it for the month of November with same dosage.

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#51

Thanks for this, @Coachrhyk . I thought I had asked this but looking back I don’t seem to have done so (or clearly): you take Nattokinase 1) every November in a “cleansing pulse (?) and then 2) daily as “upkeep” (?). (Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood.) I see you don’t want to mention a link of the specific product you take but can you tell us the doses you take in the two different types of dosing? I’d like to give this a “pre-emotive try”. Thank you.

#52

I don’t take daily. Only the annual pulse. So far so good. It’s been at least 14 years since a bad scan (and that’s with terrible lipid profile).

#53

Great, so what is the dose of the “pulse”? — you mentioned “three pills 3x per day”? — what does is that? And this was “recommended” (although not necessarily prescribed) by your doctor? — I had my doctor do this for citrus bergamot nine months ago (1000mg per day religiously) which appears to have done zip.

#54

Supplement Facts

Serving Size 1 Capsule

Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Magnesium (Citrate)

8 mg|2%|
|Proprietary Blend Neprinol AFD

500 mg|†|
|Systemic and Lipolytic Enzyme Blend: Serrapeptase, Nattokinase, Lipase

15,000 FU||
|Neprinol Protease Blend: Protease (derived from Serratia, B. subtillis and A. oryzae)||
|Neprinol Enzyme and Cofactor Blend: Amla, Papain, Bromelain, Rutin, Coenzyme Q10||

So I take 3 caps 3/day for 33 days. It was initially recommended to me by my md in Seattle after a carotid scan (bad!). Also dID a few sessions of EDTA IV at that time.

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#55

I’m glad you found a diet that worked well for you. In addition to nattokinase, you could look into fiber supplements, in particular psyllium husk, that has been shown to significantly reduce LDL. These might be even more effective in people who have otherwise low-fiber diets.

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#56

Thank you, @Coachrhyk

#57

I’ll look into that, thank you.

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#58

Well, I don’t take nattokinase, I eat natto. It’s easy to obtain in an Asian market, in the frozen section, and I’ve come to like the flavor. The gooey mycelia-like stuff that holds it together is unfamiliar. All in all, it’s tasty. I’ve no idea if it’s more effective than capsules. I throw out the little packets of chemical enhanced seasoning that come with it - reading the contents (with a 20x hand held illuminated loupe) they look pretty squirrely.

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#59

Natto video

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#60

nattokinase is a stable diet in Japan. Do we have a population study that confirms the study’s result?