I personally order with Keshavdas and son, it’s shipped to my door in a week. I ordered for more than 1500€ from them. They can get everything that is on the Indian pharma market. Great suppliers!
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Paul
#1807
not surprising at all. I’ve tried statins 3 times now and find them debilitating. I can barely function and cannot enjoy my life of hiking and biking at all. So quality of life is sometimes more important than an unknown fate
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AnUser
#1808
Side effects in RCT’s are way lower than the discontinuation rate. And you see this with all meds IIRC.
<10% vs. 50%
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It may not be surprising, but it’s not good. And most people don’t discontinue because of adverse events (which are like 3% of people in the statin and placebo groups in RCTs). You are in a very small minority of people who have strong adverse effects of statins.
People discontinue because they’re forgetful or just don’t see a point and don’t prioritise taking them because there’s no obvious feedback/benefit when taking a preventative medicine. People are a lot more adherent when there’s a clear, immediate tangible benefit like painkillers, antihistamines, hormone replacement etc
1 Like
Honestly, it doesn’t seem like a minority of people have adverse side effects from statins. I and my mother both suffer muscle pain and weakness from Rosuvastatin and Atorvastatin. We ended up taking 5 mg of Atorvastatin along with Ezetemibe and it still causes muscle pain and weakness. I switched to EOD and that was tolerable. For some reason, creatine seemed to help reduce the muscle pain side effects as well.
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vongehr
#1811
Because they preselect, i.e. remove all the many who get the side effects, then “start” the study.
AnUser
#1812
I haven’t seen any statin trial do that, do you have an example?
Most of the subjective side effects from statins are probably the nocebo effect:
In patients who had discontinued statin therapy because of side effects, 90% of the symptom burden elicited by a statin challenge was also elicited by placebo. Half the trial patients were able to successfully restart statins.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc2031173
1 Like
AnUser
#1813
If you really are keen to find out, you can placebo control this by putting the tablets in non-transparent 00 capsules, in identical bottles, filled with creatine or other filler, then mark one bottle on the bottom, and randomly select one from a bag.
If the side effects appear rapidly it’s not going to take long to know whether it was placebo or not.
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No. I’m pretty convinced the muscle spasms and weakness were caused by statins. When I stop, the side effects stop. I still take the statins EOD and that seems to minimize side effects along with the creatine.
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AnUser
#1816
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It is an absolute shitshow and I am enjoying every minute of it.
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I watched that Gil interview video with Dr. Budoff. It was very strange. I try not to be judgmental and do keep an open mind, but that was one odd encounter. Dr. Budoff seemed quite lost as to why and how the “preprint”, which he sometimes called “a draft” was published, when the full paper was going to come out - either “tomorrow” or seemingly maybe weeks(?) if ever - and seemed to have very poor communication with the other authors on this paper. And frankly seemed somewhat shifty. If I were to simply go by my unscientific BS detector, I’d say “this boy ain’t right”. He doesn’t inspire confidence. But I might be completely wrong, so I await the “full paper” - although Dave Feldman for one has stated to his followers that the paper is final and open access, so who knows if there will indeed be a magical Dr. Budoff version that will put the world right. I remain skeptical but hopeful.
3 Likes
Bicep
#1819
Ha ha ha it was like Budoff had never seen the graph before and he thought it was NCPV original instead of Delta NCPV. You’d think he’d review before an interview that is live. Having said that,
They’re all growing plaque except one guy. High apo B doesn’t have the effect you would think. Even the effect I would think from all the talk and drugs and sacrifice by people with whom the drugs do not agree. The highest delta was in the lower half of the range. The few that had huge deltas kind of ruined it for the masses below the line. The line that is quite a ways above zero and I admit it increases with Apo B. Don’t get me wrong.
Great study, looking forward to the same thing being done right some day. Lol
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Study shows the true prevalence of statin intolerance worldwide is between 6 to 10%
Researchers led by Professor Maciej Banach, of the Medical University of Lodz and the University of Zielona Góra, Poland, on behalf of the Lipid and Blood Pressure Meta-Analysis Collaboration and the International Lipid Expert Panel (ILEP), carried out a meta-analysis of 176 studies with 4,143,517 patients worldwide. The aim was to identify the overall prevalence of statin intolerance and the prevalence according to different diagnostic criteria. They also wanted to identify what factors might place people at greater risk of statin intolerance.
They found that the overall prevalence was 9.1%. Prevalence was even less when assessed according to diagnostic criteria from the National Lipid Association, the ILEP and the European Atherosclerosis Society: 7%, 6.7% and 5.9% respectively.
Journal reference:
Bytyçi, I., et al. (2022) Prevalence of stain intolerance: a meta-analysis. European Heart Journal. doi.org/10.1093/eurheartj/ehac015.
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Most likely nocebo effects, to be honest.
Evidence for this accusation?
Time to start spamming the Editor of JACC: Advances with letters demanding retraction. Failing to report your primary endpoint, releasing contradictory data on social media, acknowledging that the corresponding author didn’t bother reading the paper… easily grounds for a retraction.
2 Likes
vongehr
#1822
"statins are well known for having a high percentage of patients discontinue the drugs due to their side effects (e.g., one large study found 44.7% of older adults discontinue the drugs within a year of starting them, while another large study of adults of all ages found 47% discontinued within a year).
Statins in turn, are linked to a large number of complications that have been well-characterized (e.g., mechanistically) and described throughout the medical literature.1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
One group of side effects are those perceived by the patient (which often make them want to stop using the medications). These include:
A high incidence of muscle pain1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
…"
Sadly, the citation links did not copy. It is from the slightly kooky Midwestern Doctor, but lots of good references, did you see it? He also mentions that the shills always come with this nocebo nonsense. As if normal people all know about that statins give muscle pain and therefore expect it. One has to be a paid shill or a desperate believer to hold on to such.
vongehr
#1823
Oh, just now I see that he also made this very point explicitly:
“What I found remarkable about this study was that the doctors who cited it never considered that the nocebo effect could not apply as their patients were not aware things like muscle pain were associated with statins until they experienced them”
@relaxedmeatball
It is from the longer article:
vongehr
#1824
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