As someone who got side effects from multiple statins, the nocebo effect is not to be underestimated.
A total of 60 participants were randomized and 49 completed the 12-month protocol. Mean symptom score was 8.0 (95% CI: 4.7-11.3) in no-tablet months. It was higher in statin months (16.3; 95% CI: 13.0-19.6; P < 0.001), but also in placebo months (15.4; 95% CI: 12.1-18.7; P < 0.001), with no difference between the 2 (P = 0.388). The corresponding nocebo ratio was 0.90.
Side Effect Patterns in a Crossover Trial of Statin, Placebo, and No Treatment | JACC
And honestly I don’t see any reason to trust a blogpost “”“doctor”“” who probably got his internet degree by watching a bunch of youtube videos from keto gurus.
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vongehr
#1826
The guy is kooky, as I said, and some of the references are no good either, but there are so many links that it is worth looking into, because more established sources never mention many of those studies and deny such results exist.
About nocebo, again: It is not applicable to usual patients, because they do not expect any such particular side effects.
Your study here first gave the patients side effects from the statins, and then tested with placebo, which is very different.
The average patient researches medication for at least a few minutes on the internet. Especially statins because over 1/5 of the population is on them.
Your study here first gave the patients side effects from the statins, and then tested with placebo, which is very different.
The study I posted had three groups: control, placebo and statin group. The placebo and statin groups both had myalga symptoms (slightly but not statistical signficantly higher in the statin group).
1 Like
vongehr
#1828
All those old people getting statins from the doc can suddenly go beyond the first few google results, reaching information that does not downplay the side effects??? Why this then only with statins and other strongly shilled drugs such as covid gene therapies (“vax”)?
And about that study you refer to: It was done in order to give support to this nocebo charge that the statin shills dismiss so many suffering patients with. So they made the participants aware of those side effects on top of the on-off design of the dosing. They know what they are doing! Science is a lucrative game, we know how to play it. I do.
“study I posted had three groups: control, placebo and statin group.”
No! From the paper:
“Participants received 12 1-month medication bottles, 4 containing atorvastatin 20 mg, 4 placebo, and 4 empty.”
The statins gave them the side effects, and thus deepened their expectation. The researchers wanted to find nocebo, so they did everything so they would find nocebo. It is sophisticated fraud.
The first results on google and youtube are from antivaxx quacks that say that statins and the covid vaccine will give everyone and their puppies a trillion side effects.
So they made the participants aware of those side effects on top of the on-off design of the dosing.
But if the nocebo effect wasn’t real, then the placebo group should’ve had the same myalga score as the control group, right?
“Participants received 12 1-month medication bottles, 4 containing atorvastatin 20 mg, 4 placebo, and 4 empty.”
So one statin group, one placebo group and one control group.
The statins gave them the side effects, and thus deepened their expectation.
Again, both the statin and the placebo group had side effects.
I kind of don’t understand what you are arguing here for.
Are you claiming that the nocebo effect isn’t real and therefore all side effects experienced on statins must originate from the medication itself? In that case, there are multiple studies proving that even the placebo group experiences side effects at nearly the same rate as the statin treatment group.
Or are you claiming that the nocebo effect is real but because none of the millions of patients ever read up on possible side effects or get informed of them by their doctors, they don’t experience the nocebo effect and therefore any side effect must exclusively come from the medication itself? That also doesn’t make any sense because even boomers and what remains of the silent generation use the internet nowadays. Even your 99 year old grandmother who doesn’t even know how the tv works would at least get come consultation by her doctor regarding her medication.
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First of all, I’m asking you for evidence to support your statement that statin manufacturers organise a conspiracy to secretly pre-select trial participants who won’t have side effects.
Second, large meta-analyses of good-quality trials have shown that the true incidence of muscle pain from statins is less than 10%. You absolutely see muscle pains in some patients taking statins, but when they’re blinded to the treatment, there’s also increased muscle pains in the placebo groups. The effect also isn’t “downplayed”. Every doctor prescribing a statin tells their patient to watch out for it, which most likely increases the % of patients who notice it.
Third, those studies (to “downplay the side effects” in your words) are done precisely to address the noise of multiple people complaining that they DO have side effects. It’s not shilling for anything. It’s actually trying to address the question of whether these effects are real. Drugs have been taken off the market when those side effects turn out to be real.
Fourth, the original, major point is that side effects are not the reason why such a high % of people discontinue taking statins. It’s because you don’t have a tangible observable benefit like you do with many drugs.
Lastly, it’s ironic I guess that you’re talking about qualification, education levels and brainwashing and then followed it up by saying "covid gene therapies (“vax”). Kinda tells us everything we need to know.
2 Likes
vongehr
#1832
yes, around these places, if people cannot grasp or deny the difference between a proper vaccine and those mRNA spike protein clot shots, that indeed tells all we need to know!
vongehr
#1833
""Participants received 12 1-month medication bottles, 4 containing atorvastatin 20 mg, 4 placebo, and 4 empty.”
So one statin group, one placebo group and one control group."
No! Sorry, I cannot make it clearer than the authors. I am going to bed now. Have fun rationalizing your beliefs everybody. I don’t care.
clot shot
The only people getting clots are the antivaxxer cholesterol deniers. And deservedly so.
I could point out how stroke and MI (death) rates have continued to decline post 2021 but of course that would all just be some jewish conspiracy by the Big Pharma deep state.
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AnUser
#1836
Do you have this study? @vongehr
Paul
#1837
I doubt its due to forgetfulness - Doctors nag about statins more than any other drug.
1 Like
sudiki
#1838
what’s wrong with rosuvastatin? I have been taking 10mg with 10mg ezetimibe for many, many years and my lipids are well below the normal ok ranges. no issues with side effects.
