When it comes to delaying ageing and preserving health, I personally I think that metabolic health – caridovascular health is the first thing to focus on. This since, dysfunctions in that area is the main cause of early death. But then there is role for Rapamycin. The dog study will lead the way in translating animal studies to the complex human biology.
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Point well taken but I wouldn’t say that the analysis reveals Nothing. We’re grasping at straws because straws are all we have. We don’t have a good study on cancer prevention in otherwise healthy people using intermittent rapamycin.
The authors concluded that taking the studies as a whole, there’s no significant cancer reducing effects from rapamycin except for skin. The studies aren’t perfect, but even imperfect studies on humans > mice.
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I’ve taken rapa for 6 years and have been one of its most ardent supporters on this site, so to accuse me of paranoia and fearmongering is absurd.
I don’t need to know exact mechanisms of action to be concerned about a drug’s safety. I admit that we don’t yet have the details and that rapamycin may still be cancer protective, at least at some unknown dosage. But I’m not certain and I’m not married to it.
It’s smart to reevaluate it with each new bit of information- especially human information. It’s reckless not to.
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Being careful is the name of the game at this point.
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This is a good theory but remember that mice consistently get a longevity effect from rapamycin alone, even at very high doses.
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This latest article by Blagosklonny on protecting normal cells from the effects of chemotherapy reveals once again his incredible intellect.
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You need not be so defensive, I am only curious what ideas you have, why would or could be that rapamycin make cancer worse.
We all know that with an exception of few cancers (like smoking and lung cancer etc.) you get cancer mostly by chance. So in a way there is no prevention possible for many cancers other than spot it early before it spreads.
Rapamycin is used as a cancer medicine, it reduces new cell growth, it reduces some interleukins that are vital in spreading and growing of cancers. Studies show that in some animal models rapamycin is cancer protective and human studies don’t show at least the opposite that using rapamycin would make cancers worse. If anything they still show some degree of cancer protection… so I am just curious why are you thinking the opposite or proposing that in certain circumstances rapamycin could make cancer worse.
Because as I understand it may help and it worst case would not make much difference. So if you, that I like reading here and respect your opinion has this new ideas I would like to understand where is the fear coming from also to re-evaluate my decision to use rapamycin.
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Sorry, I tend to get a little fired up at times.
Take a close look at this study out of Taiwan published in Plos one. This was previously posted.
The authors acknowledge that rapamycin has been shown to inhibit the growth of skin, colon, and breast cancer. However, “ possible side effects such as promotion of tumor metastasis are serious concerns and this has not been thoroughly investigated to date”.
As for mechanism, “ for tumor cell invasion, regulatory T cells, Tregs, are known to play a key role in the metastatic escape of cancer cells…… rapa can enhance the expansion of Tregs…. which may promote the metastasis of mammary cancer in mice”.
More concerning:
A human database of cancer patients in Taiwan over 7 years showed a 2.79 fold Increase in cancer incidence in rapamycin users.! Granted, most were of course transplant patients. But still. Not perfect, but worrisome.
So where are we
- Rapa increases longevity in mice.
- In humans rapa can elevate lipids and glucose levels.
- Some mice studies, but not all, lean towards cancer prevention.
- A Human meta analysis shows no real cancer protection.
- A Taiwan study shows an actual highly significant Increase in cancer incidence.
- The most public and prominent promoter of rapamycin for longevity and disease prevention,most notably cancer prevention, himself comes down with a very aggressive cancer after years of rapamycin usage.
Because of points 1 and 3 above, I was willing to downplay point 2 as perhaps not being of great clinical significance in the context of rapamycin.
But points 4, 5, and 6, on actual humans, makes me re-examine the benefit/ risk .
We don’t have the necessary studies on rapamycin regarding human cancer and longevity in otherwise healthy individuals on intermittent dosing.
But the studies that we do have, albeit imperfect, are concerning, and this Blagosklonny case has made me look at this with a new perspective.
I’m being very consistent here. I’ve repeatedly said that I’ll look for option B if there’s even a slight risk of a very severe illness from an intervention. Maybe low dosing is option B. I don’t know yet.
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Thanks for excellent overview of what we know at this point. I have always been concerned that we don’t know the how the inhibition of mTOR from other sources, such as diet, supplements, and exercise affect the need for additional suppression via rapa. I haven’t found any metrics that describe the 1) level of needed inhibition and 2) the amount provided by other activities such as diet etc.
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Can you please provide the link to the study?
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It’s described in the posted study. I don’t have a link.
I have read several of the studies cited and I am not convinced that they provide any worthwhile information that rapamycin causes cancer in healthy people.
A. The studies are about high-dose immune suppression.
B. The people were already sick
The most likely cause of increased cancer among rapamycin users is prolonged immune suppression in already sick people.
IMO: the frequency and doses that most rapamycin users in this forum use would not pose a significant risk.
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LaraPo
#156
In general I agree. The only hole in your reasoning is that Dr Blagosklonny did not belong to that sick population with immune system heavily suppressed. That’s why it’s very concerning.
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Well, he was a long-time smoker and neglected warning signs.
He is also N=1 for his particular regimen.
"“Use of mTOR inhibitors (mTORi) exerted, for all cancers combined, a 46% significantly reduced risk (95% CI: 0.4–0.7).”
As I said, good enough for me.
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Here’s the connundrum, Dr. B was taking high levels of Rapamycin over a long period of time and developed a most probably fatal cancer. He will probably live to 61 at the latest.
The average Hong Konger doesn’t take any Rapamycin and will live to around 84. My father-in-law smoked like a chimney until 77 years old before developing life ending cancer. He’s still alive at 79 and his case is similar to Dr. B. But pancreatic and lung cancer due to smoking.
He got an extra 18 years without any Rapamycin.
61 is awfully young for cancer.
Seems the Rapamycin didn’t do anything and may have cut life expectancy short.
Where cancer is concerned, I take the side of caution.
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From what I’ve read he will try the Valter Longo approach of chemo and fasting and I assume rap.
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I would say that this is true “in theory”, but the reality is that Dr. Green is a very busy 80+ year old doctor with 1,000+ patients on rapamycin and I doubt he has had time to gather any real data on cancer incidence… so his opinion may be heavily skewed by bias and recency of what he’s seen, etc. as is typical with all opinion-oriented surveys.
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KFISH
#162
I remember the video he posted mega dosage of Rapa he stated-take as much as your body can stand without the side effects- so I did, not a great experience.
It’s interesting about BBB and his stroke, cancer etc. About 50% to 60% of lung cancers found in people who never smoked are adenocarcinomas
My plan for me I think it’s time to take a break from Rapa -weak nails, adult acne, low MCV higher RDW, fatigue-2 years -I seriously don’t feel or look any better- diet LC, Fasting, exercise and sleep that’s the magic pill!
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Blagosklonnys may not take Sirolimus for a long time, he should be later than Dr. Green. We can also say that Sirolimus has inhibited cancer, and it has not become ill until now.
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