I hate to say this but we need to be very careful now listening to Anyone with a bias, and a reason , be it fame or fortune, to defend the efficacy of rapamycin and cancer prevention. I’m not saying to ignore them, just grain ( or grains) of salt, just like we would big pharma defending a drug.

It may well be protective but most of that data is on mice. Other than that, we have less than perfect studies on transplant patients. But they Are human studies and the data is conflicting. At best.

On a personal note, I’ve been on rapamycin for years and recently had a normal body multiparametric mri scan. Maybe I’ve been protected, or just lucky, who knows. I’ll say this again, cancer is a very very complex disease.

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[quote=“DeStrider, post:158, topic:7927”]
61 is awfully young for cancer.

Unfortunately, cancer can strike anyone at any time. My wife died from breast cancer and she was in the very low-risk category for getting it.

Personally, I don’t take Dr. Blagosklonny’s unfortunate cancer as a warning sign. There are just too many other risk factors to worry about. In Dr.Blagosklonny’s case, we don’t know how many confounding factors there were. We do know that he smoked for many years. At what age did he take up a more healthy lifestyle? And in the end, he is still only a N=1 case.

It can happen to anyone. People who never smoked get lung cancer, etc., etc.

“Cancer can develop at any age. But as we get older, most types of cancer become more common.”

More than nine out of 10 cancers are diagnosed in people 45 and older. Those older than 74 make up almost 28% of all new cancer cases.

"1 in 2 people will get cancer in their lifetime - one of the main reasons for this being that people

are living longer."

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Compare my mother and her sister:

My mother didn’t smoke……her sister smoked for over 40 years
My mother rarely drank alcohol…. her sister drank 2-3 scotch whiskies every day in addition to the odd glass of wine.
My mother looked relatively normal from a weight perspective……her sister was grossly obese for over 50 years

My mother died of cancer in her early 40s …… her sister is still going strong in her 80s

Unless it can be categorically proven that Rapa caused Dr. B’s cancer I’m staying on it.

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Do people on this forum check their lymphocyte counts? When I take just 3 mg of rapa (1 mg + juice from two grape fruits) on a single occasion , my lymphocyte count is lowered by 35%. It’s happened twice, followed by a long period of slow recovery. I got a minor pneumonia after my last rapa.

My lymphocyte count was already below the minimum of the reference range, probably a result of seven weeks of radiation for prostate cancer which emerged before I tried rapa. Perhaps the radiation is is the reason for my vulnerability to rapa…

A certain strong immunity weakening and thus pro-aging effect vs a possible general anti-aging effect - doesn’t make for a good cost/benefit ratio of rapa in my case. Lowered immunity means less cancer-fighting ability too.

When I try just 1 mg of rapa without GFJ, the hit to my lymphocytes is small. But it’s probably still 5-10% and I guess it’s doubtful if that low dose is of any benefit.

So I aim to go for acarbose instead of rapa.
Exercising most days, I don’t like metformin’s exercise-blunting effects.

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This is mine for the last 3 months:

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ACC2 is often ignored.

Thanks, thats a decent absolute lymph count you have. Mine went from 0.8 to 0.5 after a low dose of rapa.

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And this is from 3 months prior to that:

May be your low count is not from Rapa? Mine is pretty steady for years (on Rapa 13 years).

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There are many factors that affect lymphocyte count. In my case, I don’t see that rapamycin had any effect. The trend after taking rapamycin for the better part of two years is a slight increase.

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This Taiwan study is bunk, And I don’t say this lightly.

Their human meta-analysis controls arm weren’t other transplant users not taking rapamycin. It was the general population! Considering Sirolimus is used almost exclusively in very sick transplant patients (sirolmus isn’t first line), mostly used concurrently with other cancer-inducing immunosuppressants. They might as well have named it “transplant patients have 2.7 folds increased incidence of cancer compared to the general population”, It’ll be just as valid of a statement.
This is the first time i’ve come across such a disingenuous method of evaluating Sirolimus cancer effect, Other studies at least made attempts to account for confounding factors and at the bare minimum compared sirolimus transplant patients with other transplant patients.
This not only makes me question the author’s competence but also their integrity. Because this misleading method of evaluation is one of the very few ways of presenting sirolimus in a bad light. It’s certainly disingenuous. How did this even pass peer review??

As for mechanism, “ for tumor cell invasion, regulatory T cells, Tregs, are known to play a key role in the metastatic escape of cancer cells…… rapa can enhance the expansion of Tregs…. which may promote the metastasis of mammary cancer in mice”.

There are mountains of studies done on mice, And there is no replicated evidence that rapamycin increases the incidence of any metastasis or cancers (apart from hematological malignancies in very extreme high doses). It’s mostly the exact opposite.

It’s also been extensively tested in human transplant patients, And there is still no evidence that sirolimus specifically increases the incidence of any cancer or metastasis. If it increases the risk of metastasis we would’ve seen indications of this by now from multiple studies, However, many of them show the exact opposite, And in worst-case scenarios show no benefit. Certainly not increased risk.

Everolimus is even FDA-approved because it has shown an increased survival rate when used for the treatment of her2 negative metastatic breast cancer

Some mice studies, but not all, lean toward cancer prevention

The vast majority show cancer prevention and slowing of cancer progression. Not just some.

  1. A Human meta-analysis shows no real cancer protection.

The correct framing is that Sirolimus when used in transplant patient with other immunosuppressants does not appear to confer cancer protection. Putting the big limiations of this meta-analysis aside one can speculate why. It could be that sirolimus protects against cancer by keeping immune cells young and when they’re nuked by another drug, Sirolimus can’t do much to help stop cancer. It could also be that sirolimus anti-proliferative effect is only useful when the immune is intact, And its anti-cancer effect is not impactful when the immune system is severly compromised.

@Senolytic did a great breakdown of this meta-analysis and its limitations. Interestingly most of the RCTs in this meta-analysis that used Sirolimus alone (not in combination with other immunosuppressants) demonstrated lower trends of cancers, Which is consistent with mice studies. Although they did not hit statistical significance, They barely missed it, And there can be many reasons why. (which was not the case when sirolumus was used with other immunosuppressants)

  1. The most public and prominent promoter of rapamycin for longevity and disease prevention,most notably cancer prevention, himself comes down with a very aggressive cancer after years of rapamycin usage.

This is not even a valid point. It has no place in any scientific or objective discussion. This is no different than someone questioning the benefit of exercise for cancer prevention because their fitness instructor got cancer, Or the benefit of aspirin because their cardiologist got an MI.
These decisions should be guided exclusively by high quality evidence-based experiments. There are no large-scale human rapamycin trials, And this is enough for many not to pursue it. However, appeal to emotions has no place in any decisions.

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Very well thought out reply.

Kidney transplant patients die of infections and cardiovascular disease, so why did the Taiwan users of rapamycin have an2.79 increase in cancer compared even with the general population? They die of heart attacks and strokes and pneumonia. Cancer not so much.
Why isn’t rapa conferring more cancer protection?

The meta analysis that you’ve dismissed is in the prestigious journal Cancer Med and the study was out of NIH. Only skin cancer was prevented.

The analogy of Blagosklonny with some fitness instructor doesn’t seem to quite fit. It’s more like when I was running regularly and reading the great Jim Fixx. He was the guru of running to prevent heart attacks and then got a heart attack. It shook me up. I learned from it and got an ETT before continuing my running sessions.

Blagosklonny is the guru. I’m on rapamycin because I read most of his papers and admired his great reasoning, even though he was referring almost entirely to mouse studies. When I learned of his metastasis it shook me up. It made me wonder about cancer prevention in humans. It was the catalyst for me to rethink this.

Maybe you’re right and we would have seen a cancer signal by now on rapamycin renal transplant patients. Or maybe they’re dying of other things prior to cancer development. After all, cancers can take a long time to show up.

I’m glad to see that a smart guy like you is still on board.

Me? I’m not so sure anymore.

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Compared with the general population, solid organ transplant recipients displayed a 2.68-fold cancer risk (SIR 2.68; 2.48–2.89; P < .001). Among them, renal transplant recipients displayed a 2.56-fold cancer risk (SIR 2.56; 2.31–2.84; P < .001), liver transplant recipients displayed a 2.45-fold cancer risk (SIR 2.45; 2.22–2.70; P < .001), heart and/or lung transplant recipients displayed a 3.72-fold cancer risk (SIR 3.72; 3.04–4.54; P < .001).

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You have to keep in mind that the vast majority of transplant patients have their immune system over suppressed by huge doses of at least 2 medications, e.g. Tacrolimus + Rapamycin. Some are on 3 immunosuppressants at the same time (Prednisone, Tacrolimus, Rapamycin or other combinations). And it goes like that for years. No breaks. No wonder it causes all kinds of problems, including infections and horrible side effects. Therefore, it’s incorrect imo to compare transplant patients with relatively healthy ppl who take Rapa intermittently for longevity.

My situation is extremely rare: I’m just on Rapamycin after kidney transplant 13 years ago. And I do not take it chronically. I’m sure it’s the key. But time will show.

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You make an excellent point. Unfortunately, we don’t have good human data. The best we have is transplant data. We also have mice. Doctors would never prescribe a drug based just on mice because they don’t translate well enough. Because our human data is so poor, for reasons that you’ve mentioned, anecdotal evidence takes on a greater significance.

We do know that rapamycin induces autophagy, and that autophagy can both prevent and promote cancer. But that’s a fine line to walk without the data.

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It’s remarkable how many things we’ve been able to cure in mice that have failed in humans

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For me, this has been a ‘curb your enthusiasm’ moment. Previously to this news, I had thought that Rapamycin was a bulletproof shield against cancer. If the only thing you had to worry about was mouth sores or acne, why not push it to its limit? At least that’s what Dr. B promoted. Cancer metastasis is in a different league to the rather benign side-effects we considered before.

When Dr. B, who pushed high doses, becomes a victim of the disease he was trying to prevent, at a fairly early age, it questions his theories and reasoning. Now it turns out that in some cases, Rapa may be a cancer metastasis promoter or at least not prevent it. This should cause a stop-and-think moment.

We need more human data before we can adopt high doses, although I still believe that smaller doses at longer intervals are still beneficial. My current thoughts are that maybe 3-6 mg every 2 weeks might be best… if you don’t have cancer. If we take smaller doses over a longer timeframe, we may not be able to get maximal life extension, but we may still get benefits and hopefully won’t get the ultimate life limiter - cancer.

We need to use a bit more caution here, IMHO. At least until we have a cure for cancer. Which may be around the corner (5-10 years).

However, it does make me think that the optimal time to dose Rapamycin may be when you are young and your cancer risks are lowest. If you can put in a solid 10 years of Rapamycin usage between 25-40, you may be able to get the ‘permanent advantages’ of Rapamycin without the risk of metastasizing cancer because the cancer risks are so low at that age. Likewise, when you are over 80 and your risks of cancer decrease, you may want to go to higher doses. This is due to the fact that Rapamycin seems to be able to make permanent changes if used early (or late) in life that protects throughout life… at least in mice.

For those of us dwelling in cancer alley (ages 41-70) we may want to be more cautious as our odds of cancer formation are higher. Just my thoughts.

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Those are very good thoughts Destrider.

This isn’t meant to be a peer reviewed medical journal. This is a place where we express our thoughts and opinions on a medication that most of us are taking. It’s a valuable site because it allows us to share our experiences on a drug that doesn’t have much human data. But we owe it to ourselves and our families to be careful with it.

Maybe a good alternative would be a Prenuvo MRI scan to pick up any early evidence of cancer formation. Cancer takes a while , years in fact, to grow ,and we’re getting better at early detection with scanning devices and soon plasma biopsies. Early detection Is prevention. If cancer develops, then at that point stop the rapamycin. Maybe. It’s a thought.

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I’ve had that conversation with my doctor about a full-body MRI to detect cancer. He advised against it due to the most probable result of too many false positives. The same is true for the Galleri cancer test. Remember, our body is full of cancer all the time. It’s just that our immune system handles it well. And there can be a lot of benign tumors. One of his nurses did an MRI and found a tumor in her liver. She had major surgery to have it removed which affected her liver capability. In the end, it was benign, so it was the wrong call.

A full-body PET scan may do better than an MRI as it will detect metabolic hot spots that are usually a sign of malignant cancer. Although combined with an MRI or CT scan, it should be fairly comprehensive. But it would probably be quite expensive as well (3,000 USD or more?)

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I don’t think the Rapamycin caused his cancer. according to Dr M.B. The tumor turned malignant, was found in 1991 and was benign and so he had the tumor in his system for over 30 years. That’s pretty good if you ask me.

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