At any BMI, it’s ≥ 25% for men and ≥ 35% for women.

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Time to get on a GLP! Come on in, the water’s fine! :slight_smile:

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Overweight men should lose weight before starting TRT IMO. If they lose weight, they might not even need TRT.

With the GLP-1s, there is little excuse to be overweight outside of rare genetic abnormalities. A year’s worth of Retatrutide can be had for about US$300, basically affordable to everyone.

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Not wrong, every woman unless they have cancer or something.

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@Connie_Theron_Beidel Wait where can you get Reta for roughly $300 / year?

Standard Chinese pricing is down around 80cents/mg, and can often be had cheaper through group buys and promotions.

You really don’t need to spend more than a $1/mg for most peptides, and many are much less than that.

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But I thought the best Chinese vendors had got busted! I’m really spread too thin at the moment to do the research I ought to be doing on the peptide forums to find the new best underground vendors. If someone has a source they’ve recently used with success, I’d love to hear it.

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A couple great ones have gotten busted the past 2 years, but there have always been many and some have really stepped up to the plate and even have some domestic US shipping options for a little bit more $$. Items are still getting through customs, though “inspections” that appear to usually just be paperwork inspections, have been delaying some shipments. There were other busts, unrelated, associated with one particular police captain who was going after AAS producers, but that’s a long story and has nothing to do with this. Peptides are still legal to produce, market, and export in China.

Feel free to DM me for resources. I just don’t like to publish them on open forums.

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That’s certainly one school of thought that sounds very sensible and has many advocates, but I think real world circumstances are often complicated so I offer a counterpoint. This is also one of those issues where I think patient experiences should outweigh what doctors think makes sense in some idealized world that doesn’t exist. It’s really the kind of statement that few who have suffered from very low testosterone would make.

Most men who start thinking about hormone replacement have a reason: they feel like crap. They tend to be in their 40s or older, have gained weight, are at the peak of their careers so have a lot of stress, have children in the house or in college, and are starting to have to deal with aging parents. Sleep is often poor, life is busy, and it’s hard to fit in exercise. So, yes, all these things combined with less than ideal diet lead to weight gain and low testosterone. But note that it’s often multi-factorial.

So yes, GLPs can get the weight off, but that takes a few months or longer and there’s a risk of muscle loss if testosterone is low. Maybe muscle can be maintained with resistance training and protein even with low T, but adding more exercise when in a caloric deficit and when already in a low-energy state because of low T can be very difficult to sustain. Contrary to popular belief, it is not easy to add muscle once in the 40s or beyond, so you really do not want to lose any. If a man has decent testosterone levels and does everything exactly right, with consistency, he would be lucky to gain 5 lbs of lean muscle his first year of hard training unless starting from a very low baseline.

What if he does get the weight off first, though? Stress and sleep issues may still be present, and a caloric deficit will kill libido and hamper testosterone production while in the weight loss phase also. Even once the weight is off, there is no guarantee that levels will dramatically increase if stress and sleep are still issues.

The other thing to consider is that he’s probably going to go on HRT at some point anyway. So why delay a few years? I think it makes more sense for many men to start HRT and GLPs at the same time, get healthy, retain the muscle, and just stay on the HRT. They are unlikely to lose muscle while dieting and will get the energy and emotional benefits of the testosterone that make it easier.

Now there are other options that aren’t discussed enough if one doesn’t want to go straight to testosterone. One is using high doses of HCG for a period of time. This is uncommon and I’ve never heard a doctor recommend it, but it is something that is done and it works. Enclomiphene is another option, though many who do it note that their testosterone increases yet they don’t feel good.

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Firstly, I wish I was a hyper responder. Maybe you have a built in genetic mutation that is a natural myostatin inhibitor!
Dr. Fahy stated that increasing testosterone has a dose dependent increase in Thymus involution. If that is to be believed, it may imply that having high or supra physiological androgens could be life shortening.

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Remember, that castration reliably increases lifespan in mammals. Any dog/cat owner will tell you that. Eunuchs have also been recorded to have longer lifespans on average.

Dr. Fahy stated that increasing testosterone has a dose dependent increase in Thymus involution.

I respect Fahy on thymus regeneration and follow his protocol… but getting your TRT to normal … higher levels and doing HGH should not be a problem. As we are working in normal zones.

He also knocks rapamycin, but thought normal dose was 6 mg daily… not weekly.

I think he knows his area well… thymus and HGH with DHEA.

Even Matt Kaeberlein went on TRT and remains on rapamycin despite his intense interview with Fahy. Fahy saying not good for the thymus.

I trust Kaeberlein’s judgment and actions as a cautious researcher and skeptical adaptor.

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That seems to be a theme of this thread: normal zones for T and E2. I think our only problem is the definition of “normal,” because I see so many posts on Reddit where guys have testosterone of 300 and their endo says that’s normal, you’re fine, your symptoms are in your head. Any doctor providing HRT consults should have to tank their testosterone for a few weeks and live through it before offering that opinion. :joy:

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I am a 77 yr old woman with a history of weight-bearing exercise. I have been on one or another hormone for decades, but feel that only recently - with a “new” female ND - has my all-topical hormone regime made a huge difference in mood, function, strength, weight control, and resolution of troublesome symptoms. I use blended estrogens, DHEA, progesterone, and testosterone. The amount of testosterone has been critical, as too much seemed to produce headaches and mood swings. Bottom line is that incisive hormone supplementation can do marvels in mood, strength, and freedom from various symptoms. And yes, I also do Rapa and LDN. Bone density is adequate - still working to improve, with comprehensive supplements: taurine, melatonin, K2, conservative Vit D, DIM and calcium glucarate, among others - strength is diminished from younger age (gym rat, cyclist, bodybuilder) and I have an orthopedic condition resulting from a misguided hip surgery, so cannot run, etc. I absolutely recommend HRT, and if you are not getting results switch regimes or docs - there is much to be gained.

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I agree that 80% of what you say here is common — and that argues for Connie’s point. A person who loses weight, does RT to avoid muscle loss, and gets their sleep in order will reap multiple benefits irrespective of what happens to their T — and their T is likely to improve.

If their T is normalized enough to fix their symptoms, they’ll have it for no cost, no interaction with the medical system, and under physiological regulation (likely circadian T and LH and the activity of the gonadal axis are good things).

Conversely, if they work on all the above and it turns out that their 'nads are just shot, they will have all the benefits of weight loss, exercise, and sleep, and benefit more from their exogenous T.

We will have to agree to disagree. I think you’re piling up several low probability “ifs” that describe a divergence from reality for many men who find themselves in this circumstance. As I said, the reasons for low T are often clustered, and solving one problem will not necessarily solve the others. Poor sleep and stress do not resolve when weight is lost. Simply resistance training and eating protein is no guarantee that muscle will be preserved in the kind of caloric deficit that may be necessary - any fitness coach knows this. So one can choose to suffer for months, and possibly wind up with lower muscle mass and STILL low testosterone, or one can acknowledge reality, fix the problem, and move on with life.

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Not sure why he did not consider transdermal patches. Also, if your PSA is high or you have prostate cancer, TRT is not a good idea; revisit when PSA is near-zero.

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Hi Ginny, We are finding use of the C4 kaatsu.com device is very easy almost stationary way of retaining, gaining muscle. As long as protein intake and absorbtion is where it needs to be. IE intake of 1gr / 2.2 # or more.

I also do ipamorlin / CJC / tesamorlin in early AM then kaatsu bands while on a vibration plate using heaviest hand weights I can manage for 10 reps. FWIW also standing in front of a stacked LED panel set.

good luck, curt

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That’d be incorrect in regards to testosterone and prostate cancer. Testosterone doesn’t cause prostate cancer. We use it even in men on active surveillance for known prostate cancer. I’d expound further but I’m replying from my phone.

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Very nice TRT info! Been on cream then injection, no HGG, for seems like 20 yr. Target is 1000 free measured just prior to bi weekly injection. IF you desire to lower / keep low SBGH, minimize the peak T, by dividing injections per week. 2 seems good for me of a total dose for me of 100mg T. If my calc of concentration is correct.

AI: no value or anti-value in my studies. Estrogen >75 was mentioned by a female MD at a conf to be the level (shades of gray) at which plaque is removed for both men and women. In general she was pitching higher levels of E for women, since women post WHI are given zero to way too little E.

The weight lifters INJECT E to raise E even higher since it is anti inflammatory and reduces joint/muscle inflammation. Just the messanger here.

Sadly IMHO the whole system knows far far too little about optimal blood levels for men/women/per age/conditions!!!

Also sadly and comically; those blood test ranges on the right are not optimal ranges but a mathimatical ave of region (SE, SW, NW, NE) blood values seen. Who gets more blood tests? Older sick people. SOooooo Driving all of your hormones to ABOVE the high number in the test range to me makes sense. We have no data for health men/women at 30 yo. I suppose one could google and find some study that happens to reference 20-30yo hormone levels… Its a total mess. Thyroid mis-diagnosis is criminal, sex hormone mis practice is just poor practice.

Best to all, curt

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