#18

does 1,3-butanediol count as a ketone ester that works?

[as much as juvenescence’s ketone’s?]

#19

A small study found that drinking ketones improved heart efficiency in type 2 diabetes patients, supporting the hypothesis that ketosis benefits cardiovascular health, though further research is needed.

Drinking ketones improves heart health, according to a new small-scale study from the University of Portsmouth.

This is the first time people with type 2 diabetes (T2D) have been given a drink containing ketone esters—a supplement designed to induce ketosis—to monitor its effects on the heart.

The trial involved 13 participants who were given a drink with ketones, and then a placebo drink over a week later. Their cardiovascular function was measured 30 minutes later using non-invasive monitoring, similar to an ECG; ultrasound to assess microvascular function, which looks at the health of the vessels; and infrared spectroscopy, which assesses the blood flow into small vessels.

Dr. Perissiou said: “In all 13 of the participants, their hearts were working more efficiently after the ketone drink at rest and during moderate-intensity exercise, compared to the placebo drink. I’m feeling very positive about the results, but more research is needed because we only assessed participants on the day, which means we have no idea what the chronic impact of drinking ketones would be.”

https://scitechdaily.com/scientists-discover-that-drinking-this-supplement-could-improve-your-heart-health/

Reference: “Ketone monoester ingestion improves cardiac function in adults with type 2 diabetes: a double-blind, placebo controlled, randomised, crossover trial” by M. Perissiou, Z.L. Saynor, K. Feka, C. Edwards, T.J. James, J. Corbett, H. Mayes, J. Shute, M. Cummings, M.I. Black, W.D. Strain, J.P Little and A.I. Shepherd, 17 January 2025, Journal of Applied Physiology .
DOI: 10.1152/japplphysiol.00800.2024

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#20

Esters are expensive and taste bad. I drink ketone salts most days, when I’m worn out and before eating.

2 Likes
#21

Ketone dose in the study was 0.115 grams/kg, or 9.2 grams for an 80 kg (176 lb) adult. I’m assuming one of the advantages of the ester drinks is that they can pack in more ketones without the high dose of electrolytes required in the ketone salt drinks. I do hear they taste like gasoline, though.

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#22

It looks like I take about 20 grams of salts, maybe 2/3 BHB, so I’m very close and maybe over what they’re talking about.

I bought a tub of juvanescence once and had trouble finishing it. Taste was undescribable, but it did give me a little buzz. Barely worth it.

1 Like
#23

“This is the first time people with type 2 diabetes (T2D) have been given a drink containing ketone esters—a supplement designed to induce ketosis—to monitor its effects on the heart.”

“induce ketosis”, yet when I asked

, I got all weird non answers. Now of course, these patients drinking ketones are not in ketosis, nor is it clear that externally supplied ketones do trigger ketosis even in the properly fasted state, but I won’t hold my breath for any of the know-it-alls here who dismissed my questions about it to point such out.

#24

I suspect that it is the mild vasodilation effect of Ketones that helps stiff calcified endothelium, function better in the elderly. I can no longer do Zone 5 workouts (HR >170), without ingesting ketone esters 30 min prior to workout. Ketone dilation prevents severe ocular migraines after zone 5 workouts (in me - 62 CAC 125). I suspect beetroot juice, nitric acid would work as well.
Ketone is metabolized via the lactate pathway and mitochondria will always preferentially metabolized any lactate before ketones. Therefore during exercise there is no metabolic improvement from ketones. No professional cycling teams use ketones anymore. Ketones are also a significant diuretic.

#25

Since what age? Which factor(s) exactly prevent the ability to operate at a HR >170? What drugs affect the pathways modulating max HR in exercise? Is VO2MAX affected by ketones in a stress test?

#26

Once I was 55y I couldn’t rev past 170 without experiencing migraines. A little investigation and I found exogenous ketones helped - and HR178-182 is no issue. The natural (unnatural?) stiffening of vessel endothelium as you age prevent the natural rebound of arterial pressure under stress. Therefore under Zone 5 my blood pressure exceeds what my brain can tolerate and I get migraines unless I take ketones- (I have high lipids and a CAC score of 125). There is no “pathway” preventing max heart rate/VO2Max, merely the side effects from reaching max heart rate with inelastic endothelium.

4 Likes
#27

Thank you! Sounds like you got it dialed in.

1 Like
#28

Interesting… I think I’ll try this, just to see if I can duplicate the effect of increase Max heart rate.

Anyone else tested this and had any results? positive or negative?

#29

I run better and have better times on Ketones, but my max is 160. Even that for more than about 10 seconds feels like it could result in death. 180-- no way

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#30

I didnt know that! Is max heart rate correlated with endothelium’s stiffness?

I sometimes have headaches while sprinting. Are ketones the only way to prevent those? Maybe any vasodilator can work?

1 Like
#31

I used coconut oil blended with coffee for a couple of years, but never noticed anything. So, I stopped. However, after reading this information I did some research and will reconsider. Here is what ChatGPT says, but take it with a grain of salt. I find ChatGPT to commonly have wrong answers:

1. Types of Ketone Supplements

  • Ketone Esters (KEs) – The most potent and effective form, rapidly increasing blood ketone levels. Often used for research and athletic performance.
  • Ketone Salts (KSs) – Ketones bound to sodium, potassium, calcium, or magnesium. These are more accessible but may not raise ketone levels as effectively as esters.
  • MCT Oil (Medium-Chain Triglycerides) – Converts into ketones in the liver but at a slower rate. Often used in ketogenic diets.

2. Suggested Dosages & Methods of Dosing

A. Ketone Esters

  • Dose: 10–25g per serving (β-hydroxybutyrate equivalent)
  • Method: Drink diluted in water on an empty stomach for rapid absorption.
  • Use Case: Cognitive enhancement, endurance performance, metabolic health.

B. Ketone Salts

  • Dose: 5–12g per serving (β-hydroxybutyrate equivalent)
  • Method: Mixed in water or electrolyte drinks, taken 1–2 times daily.
  • Use Case: General ketone support, easier to tolerate than esters.

C. MCT Oil

  • Dose: 5–20g per serving (starting with 5g to assess tolerance)
  • Method: Added to coffee, shakes, or meals. Best taken with food to reduce digestive issues.
  • Use Case: Long-term ketone production, sustained energy, ketogenic diet support.

3. Practical Guidelines

  • Start with a low dose to assess tolerance, especially with ketone esters and MCT oil.
  • Stay hydrated to balance electrolytes, particularly when using ketone salts.
  • Use ketone esters for immediate effects, whereas ketone salts and MCTs provide more gradual benefits.
  • Monitor blood ketone levels (if needed) using a ketone meter to adjust dosing.
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#32

May I ask, are you on a keto diet?

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#33

Not on keto diet now - (was for 1 year). I find Ketone esters do the trick before workouts, but as mentioned above I have heard Beetroot juice might do the same thing-but have not tried it yet.

#34

Satchel, What brand do you use?

#35

Ketoneaid KE1 tastes the best to me , 60% ester and 40% salt(liquid-peach flavour) I have used KE4 100% ester but it tastes like gasoline. Esters are metabolized in 90-120 min but with a faster absorption-, but salts might last a bit longer. When I run out of ester I have used just ketone salt capsules which are cheap and seem to work. It takes about 30-40min before I am into zone 5, so there seems to be plenty of time for absorption of any product.

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#36

I’ve never taken ketone esters… what is the frequency of dosing?

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https://www.amazon.com/KetoneAid-Reduced-Natural-Exogenous-Ketones/dp/B0DM2RMV82?th=1

#37

As i mentioned esters last 1.5-2hrs. They are rapidly metabolized. I just take them 30 min prior to a hard zone 5 workout. I don’t take them if i am just doing zone 2 or weight lifting. If i have gone a little too hard i will take them afterwards as well. The recommended dose is 30mls by the manufacturor of ke1.

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