You’ve used exogenous DHT?

Yea. It’s really good. It’s different to DHT derivatives. It plays a genuine role in male hormone replacement therapy.

Yes, my PSA went down too when I was on finasteride. My Dr said it also reduced the risk of prostate cancer by 24%. Not sure exactly where he got that from. Apparently previous info that it increased the risk of aggressive prostate cancer was shown to be untrue. Now off it as it affected my sex life some. Just now using up my remaining pills by crushing them and adding them to Minoxidil treatment for hair thinning. Also add some rapyamycin too.

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I tried Finasteride 1mg per day for my prostate. I got all the side effects (lack of libido, retrograde ejaculation, head ace etc.) after 2 weeks. Stopped it because I got worried, but it actually did relax my prostate nicely. Anyone with the same experience that switched to Dusteride with better success? I am getting concerned to try these meds.

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Bingo. The evaluation ex ante is based on what you can learn from studies and anything you can guess based on known risk factors (e.g. a known allergy to a certain antibiotic, knowing you have impaired CYP3A4, etc.). The evaluation ex post will be weighted much more heavily to your actual experience. You’d be foolish to ignore studies ex ante, and you’d be foolish to ignore your own experience ex post.

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Very low dose finasteride was borderline tolerable, but very low dose dutasteride was a disaster. It took 2-3 months to recover. I would be cautious, dose infrequently (start at once a week) and stop at the first sign of trouble. Maybe have DHT cream or a derivative on hand just in case (mesterolone).

A lot of people in this thread have gotten away with crushing DHT - more power to them - but if one can’t, one can’t. I have come to love DHT, and my prostate doesn’t complain. The neuromuscular and neuropsychological effects are fantastic if one cares at all about athletic performance, coordination, and motor skill acquisition. Higher DHT (not too high… ) provides all around drive, has anti-depressive and anti-anxiety effects, and sharpens thinking. I was trying to preserve my hair for a long time (I still have it), but knowing what I know now, I will gladly shave my head in exchange for DHT. It may make me look older, but I feel younger when it’s higher.

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Plenty of studies showing that DHT (at least the one being prodcued) doesn’t have an effect on that and mechanistically at least finasteride not having any impact on brain DHT.

provides all around drive, has anti-depressive and anti-anxiety effects, and sharpens thinking.

Surely there would be RCTs showing that DHT (not testosterone) based derivates decrease depression and anxiety as well as improving symptoms of dementia, right?

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Brezis’s review draws on data from eight large-scale studies conducted between 2017 and 2023, all showing the same pattern: individuals taking finasteride were significantly more likely to develop mood disorders or suicidal thoughts than those who were not prescribed the drug. These results were consistent across various countries and data systems, including the U.S. FDA’s adverse event reports and national health registries from Sweden, Canada, and Israel.

For what it’s worth, depression was not among the side effects I experienced.

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Reverse causality can and will be at play. Why do people take finasteride? Because they are balding. What is depressing? Balding. Doesn’t help that finasteride has been villainified on the internet to a similar degree to statins and the covid vaccine by bad actors.

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If somebody is taking finasteride and happy with the results, they should continue taking it. I am certainly not posting that study to discourage anybody from trying or continuing therapy with a 5ari. (Stay winning, @agetron.)

At the same time, it irks me reading posts that discount people’s self-reported experience on the basis that there would have been validation by RCT if such a thing were possible. I think that claim is specifically false as applied in this thread, and I think it’s an inhospitable posture more generally, not to mention a logical fallacy.

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People’s experiences can be influenced by the placebo and nocebo effect. This is why we have RCTs and MRs in order to establish causality.

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True… I sympathize with those who don’t get equal benefits and experiences. Like the amazing molecule rapamycin (Matt K’s vitamin R) - not everybody gets the same results… although by enlarge seems benefits outweighs risks.

Going on 68 years… got my libido, hair, no plaque, no arthritis and memory sharp as ever. Finasteride has been a good move for me 3 decades in the making. Particularly in the area of prostate size.

College buddy messaged me out of the blue this weekend. He’s 5 years younger.
Dealing with a prostate the size of a baked potato. Had a surgery. And, got on finasteride 6 months ago and getting benefits… 20 % reduction. His son, a physician, graduate from my university, should definitely look into what might be his hereditary future. Dad seems good in finasteride… maybe he would too. For me restricting the prostate’s growth is a major benefit in quality of life.

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I think that’s a bit of an overstatement, because it depends on the task, and rodent studies aren’t the best predictors of athletic performance, which is what I’m referring to. I’m not talking about castrated rats learning to walk a maze or press a lever.

DHT-related compounds are routinely used in the performance world because they’re known by coaches and athletes to improve coordination and reduce hesitancy, i.e. they improve reaction time, so skill mastery comes more easily. We don’t have the kind of RCTs that show this (anti-doping rules make this infeasible), but we do have thousands of case studies and a general knowledge base from that world. There are places where these things are discussed, but that is typically done rather discretely because coaches don’t want to get their athletes in trouble. Still, this is common practice and it’s common because everybody in that world knows that it works. We’re talking a few decades of trial and error at this point.

I don’t know why one would think there would surely be RCTs, or relevant RCTs for compounds that fell out of favor long ago and that were designed for different purposes. The implied premise there is shaky (and I didn’t make claims about dementia). We’re talking about far off-label use, and pharmacology moved on to more sophisticated and specific drugs. There were a couple early studies on mesterolone, but they were small and inconclusive. Existing studies of DHT in men aren’t helpful because they don’t represent how one would actually use it in practice, which would be with a testosterone base.

We’re left, again, with thousands of case studies and also modern clinical practice. When men on TRT have libido problems, the solution is often to add in scrotal cream that increases DHT. When men on underground forums discuss DHT-derivatives, particularly drostanolone and mesterolone, and to some extent oxandrolone, the message is clear: near instantaneous mood and libido boosting across the board, nice calm feelings, better performance in the gym, often a correction of mild ED. Everybody reporting these things is already injecting testosterone.

Anybody can test this. Take 50mg of Proviron and see how you feel 4 hours later. Take a moderate dose of Masteron for a month and see what happens to your coordination when executing compound movements or playing your favorite sport. DHT is actually harder to come by, so reports are less frequent.

If RCTs are done well, they’re great, but we have a large body of evidence as it is, and the effects are so obvious that I don’t know why we would need RCTs for this - just try the compounds. I mean, nobody needs RCTs to know that heroin or meth work, either.

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DHT itself, not derivatives. From my personal experience it does these things. This is true for other men who have experimented with exogenous DHT (not derivatives, that is a different discussion.)

It annoys me so much. It’s like we held back science to make drug testers jobs easier. Also because of this we don’t have as much research and development of better and safer performance enhancers.

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I am also talking about human studies.

DHT-related compounds are routinely used in the performance world because they’re known by coaches and athletes to improve coordination and reduce hesitancy, i.e. they improve reaction time, so skill mastery comes more easily.

Exogenous DHT is a different story altogether and it does improve athletic performance.

I don’t know why one would think there would surely be RCTs, or relevant RCTs for compounds that fell out of favor long ago and that were designed for different purposes.

So there are none and this is more so of an “I read this on a steroid forum” kind of thing. I mean I can understand men feeling better on steroids but you don’t even need DHT-based substances for that.

We’re left, again, with thousands of case studies and also modern clinical practice. When men on TRT have libido problems, the solution is often to add in scrotal cream that increases DHT.

Source? TRT already works well enough for most men.

If RCTs are done well, they’re great, but we have a large body of evidence as it is, and the effects are so obvious that I don’t know why we would need RCTs for this - just try the compounds. I mean, nobody needs RCTs to know that heroin or meth work, either.

Athletic performance I can understand but your other claims regarding improving mental capacity are just out there.

It absolutely has an impact on psychology.

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I was talking with a friend the other day, and he mentioned that he had somebody come to clean his solar panels and discovered that one of them had been shot through with a bullet.

I asked if it was possible to tell when it happened, since the amount of power being generated should have declined to (k-1) / k, where k is the total number of panels. (Each panels has its own microinverter, so an issue with one panel does not take down the whole system.)

He said such a thing was not easily done, because he has a large number of panels and because the variance due to weather (e.g. cloudy days) and other factors is itself large.

I think this is a useful analogy for understanding effects we sometimes perceive from drugs. Detection isn’t just a matter of the existence of the effect (one panel taken offline) but the size of the effect (just one panel of many) and the size of all the other simultaneous effects (cloudy cover). In the case of finasteride (by decreasing DHT) or exogenous DHT (by increasing DHT), one can imagine that there are reasons it might impact some people more than others in the first place (depending on baseline levels, androgen receptor density, distance from the threshold where an impact would occur) and reasons the impact might be more noticeable for some people (with less background variance) than others.

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But it is remarkable that people can crush their DHT by 70-95% and the impact is relatively small in rcts where the mind can’t play you tricks. Compare that estradiol or oral AA where you’ll have a much larger proportion of the treatment group feeling various side effects.

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There are so many possibilities on why some people react negatively to 5AR inhibition vs others:

  • SRD5A1/SRD5A2 differences might alter tissue distribution ratios of 5AR1 and 2
  • AR gene CAG repeat length affects receptor sensitivity and this could play a role
  • CYP3A4 / CYP3A5 polymorphisms could affect fin/dut metabolism
  • Blood brain barrier for some people might allow more of the drugs in than others affecting, among other things, alllogregnanolone.
  • Different levels of androgen receptor distribution in different brain regions
  • Neuroinflammation or disease that was previously undetected impacted by the above
  • HTPA function
  • Certain ratios of free vs total testoterone
  • Higher aromatase activity prior to starting
  • Unique sensitivity to DHT to E2 ratio
  • And more

A not insignificant number of men react negatively to 5ARi and we don’t know the exact mechanism why.

A lot of men respond positively to exogenous DHT. But I don’t think the whole reason men react negatively to 5ARi is solely because of DHT.

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There’s a large body of evidence, many thousands of case studies if you will, that you’re unaware of, so being flippantly dismissive of it I think is silly. I’m stating things that are very well known in the performance world. Not all steroids have the same effects. They operate very differently and are used for different reasons. All of the effects that I have mentioned are known to be very real and obvious when these compounds are used correctly and in the right setting.

And I’m not just talking about steroid forms, I’m talking about discussions that high level coaches have in more private settings.

Studies are not useful here because the right kind of studies don’t exist. We have to rely on the “clinical” experience of expert practitioners.

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