#42

Estrogen creams are already FDA approved and have been used for post-menopausal vaginal/vulva atrophy for many years. They are available for facial use as well, cannot imagine they wouldn’t have a similar effect on facial collagen.

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#43

Dr. Bart - thats an interesting idea - topical use for facial use. I’m assuming it would likely only be a good fit for women (estrogen cream) as it would raise men’s levels to unhealthy levels - is that a reasonable assumption?

They are inexpensively available from the Indian suppliers about $5.00 to $10.00 US per tube:

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#44

Do we want to go down the rabbit hole ? :rofl:

This is what I got for my wife Prescription Skincare That Works | Musely FaceRx

Couple of points:

17-α Estradiol (weak estrogen) extended life of male mice.

Human males have some estrogen circulating in their system

I have no idea what topical estrogen absorption is like but most steroids are fat soluble and absorb through skin quite readily (you can admin testosterone topically)

There are some topical products for hair loss that contain 17-α Estradiol… Alfatradiol - Wikipedia That’s one I would go with if I was experimenting…

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#45

I apply daily Galderma’s 17-α Estradiol, brand name ell-cranell, hair loss topical. It is not feminizing as far as I can tell. Further, 17-α Estradiol cream makes plenty of sense to me for men. Actually. for a while i was thinking about either making it myself or buying it if readily available.

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#46

where do you get that?

#47

Its available from many European websites, eg: https://www.germanbeautyproduct.com/product-page/ell-cranell-alfatradiol-anti-hair-loss-hair-growth-root-dama-100ml

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#48

I think it’s redundant for someone like me, that is are already on 5 alpha reductase inhibitor, since that seems to be the way the estradiol works, but maybe a good option for my wife. Thanks.

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#49

Sorry if I misunderstood, but did you put this onto your face - or scalp?

#50

It’s technically for the scalp but we are making a case here for using it on the face, definitely women and …maybe men. But if the mechanism of action is solely via DHT inhibition then those on 5 alpha reductase inhibitors probably wouldn’t benefit much… just bunch of speculations, no hard evidence.

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#51

Thanks! I thought so but I was a bit confused, since in terms of facial skin benefits (hydration, elasticity, etc) an estriol cream may potentially be more effective, also for males?
Albeit of course an estriol cream wouldn’t have an inhibiting effect on DHT, which the 17-alpha estradiol cream should have.

As a female I’m also not sure what may be an option given the conflicting results with 17-alpha estradiol in male vs. female rodents in the ITP. Those results did make me wonder whether 17-alpha estradiol may be beneficial to use in peri-/post-menopausal women. Since I’m neither of both, I’m not sure whether it would be a good idea to go the 17-alpha estradiol route. Albeit I may still want to give it a try on my hair.

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#52

Does the 17-alpha-estradiol serum create scalp greasiness in others? I avoid washing my scalp too often, as with fine, long hair I end up with knots that take hours to detangle.

#53

Doesn’t 17b estradiol also strongly inhibit DHT?

#54

Hope you don’t mind I’m including a LLM’s summary:

Source: Testosterone Metabolism in Human Skin Cells in vitro and Its Interaction with Estradiol and Dutasteride

LLM response:
"Information about the effects of 17β-estradiol and DHT on skin cells:

Effects on Skin Cells

  1. Testosterone metabolism:
  • Human skin regulates testosterone action through cell-type-specific activation or deactivation.
  • Different skin cell types show varying patterns of testosterone metabolism.
  1. Keratinocytes and Dermal Papilla Cells (DPC):
  • In these cell types, dihydrotestosterone (DHT) formation from testosterone is relatively low.
  • Androstenedione is the main metabolite produced in keratinocytes and DPC.
  1. Fibroblasts:
  • In skin fibroblasts, DHT formation is more pronounced, especially at lower testosterone concentrations (10^-8 M).
  1. Effects of 17β-estradiol:
  • Both 17α-estradiol and 17β-estradiol, at nontoxic concentrations, decreased the formation of 17-ketometabolites in skin cells.
  • This suggests that estradiol can influence testosterone metabolism in skin cells, potentially affecting the balance of androgens.
  1. Cell-type specificity:
  • The effects of testosterone and its metabolites, as well as the influence of estradiol, appear to be cell-type specific within the skin.

Implications

  • The interaction between 17β-estradiol and DHT in skin cells is more complex than simple inhibition.
  • 17β-estradiol appears to modulate testosterone metabolism in skin cells, which could indirectly affect DHT levels or activity.
  • The effects vary depending on the specific skin cell type (keratinocytes, fibroblasts, or dermal papilla cells).

It’s important to note that while 17β-estradiol influences testosterone metabolism in skin cells, the research doesn’t describe a direct inhibition of DHT by 17β-estradiol in these cells. Instead, it suggests a more nuanced interaction where estradiol affects the overall androgen metabolism in skin tissue."

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#55

Having copied all that, as a female I’d not use 17-beta estradiol (unless in (peri-)menopause).

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#56

Scalp. As effective as 2% minoxidil for hair regrowth per study on Korean women.

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#57

@Pat25 As a female I started using my estriol vaginal cream on my face and neck in the spring of this year and definitely find it helpful for the tight dry feeling I developed with menopause. I can say that with confidence because I’m out of it atm and there’s a noticeable difference.

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#58

Excellent, my theory seemed to be correct then, makes perfect sense, in a certain sense estrogen is an anabolic steroid - for skin, tissue and bones… not sure about muscle.
Wouldn’t be wild if also prevented facial bone and fat loss that cause so much of volume loss in the aging face (hollow effect)? I hope rapamycin does some of that as well, that’s my long shot theory.

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#59

I wonder if there is some potent form of estrogen that does not go systemic. It would be ideal for application on the hair and forehead.

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#60

Thanks, blsm. Great to hear it has given you such visible results, and thanks for sharing :smiling_face:! Sounds like something I may want to give a try, a few times per week. Just wondering a bit if an estriol cream (albeit weaker than estradiol) could still influence estrogen levels, but perhaps if it’s only used on the face and sporadically, it would be less of an issue.

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#61

It would be. Have never heard of it though. Albeit estriol is significantly less potent than estradiol (and estrone), at least the potential systemic effects should be less. Personally I may give an estriol cream a try, but if I do: at most using it twice per week or so /in not too high concentrations.

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