#201

Just an anecdote, but I started collagen hoping it would help my hair and skin. It hasn’t at all. But my knees have never felt better! Joint pain has vanished, even the day after leg day.

5 Likes
#202

Very convincing that standard collagen peptides aren’t useful for joints, but he barely talks about the skin studies. Either way, it sounds like industry-sponsorship of studies is a major problem:

4 Likes
#203

He makes a lot of good points about the confounders for increased collagen synthesis in joints and the mechanistic rationale makes sense - tl;dr vitamin C is likely the main driver along with sufficient protein intake. With that said, if I were having surgery where post-op I want increased collagen synthesis, I would follow the protocol in the RCT since it’s the best and only evidence we have for improved collagen synthesis in joints.

3 Likes
#204

New video from Stanfield about the subject. Very good breakdown.

7 Likes
#205

Shitposting here wouldn’t be as fun if it didn’t cause a blip on the radar for longevity influencers a few days later.

So the protein equated RCT for skin health was only for treating burns and we don’t know how generalizable that is to other skin health.

Brad did well with the criticism of meta-analytic reviews, that was simple and to the point.

3 Likes
#206

While this is important to mention and ideally the control groups would get equivalent amounts of protein, I don’t think this is a big problem. The increase in protein intake by addition of collagen supplements is hardly significant in most studies. I strongly doubt that benefits would be explained by 5 g of extra protein.

I’ve read a lot of studies on collagen and I agree that his take is very good.

3 Likes
#207

I don’t know how the study was set up but the amino acid ratios between collagen and say, whey protein, are so different that x amount of protein is not a good control for x amount of collagen. If completely hydrolyzed collagen was given as a control, at least you could differentiate between peptide-derived and amino acid-derived effects.

4 Likes
#208

I agree. That would be a good control to have in collagen studies.

#209

Because so many here take collagen, i thought I’d post Layne norton’s latest video on the topic. His critique seems compelling… (ps, I am not reading the ai summation so i don’t know if it’s missing key points, as sometimes might happen)

Skepticism Towards Collagen Supplementation

  • The speaker expresses skepticism regarding the effectiveness of collagen supplementation, questioning its benefits for improving connective tissue.
  • It is explained that when collagen is ingested, it is broken down during digestion into individual amino acids rather than being directly utilized by the body for collagen synthesis.
  • The speaker emphasizes that increased intake of collagen does not necessarily lead to an increase in the synthesis rate of connective tissue or collagen.
  • Research from Luke Vanlon’s lab, recognized for its work in protein metabolism, is cited, demonstrating that collagen supplementation does not enhance the rates of connective tissue synthesis.

Research Findings on Collagen Supplementation

  • Despite the skepticism, there are human randomized control trials indicating that collagen supplementation can improve pain recovery outcomes and enhance skin properties such as elasticity and hydration.
  • A recent meta-analysis is mentioned, which concluded that collagen supplementation does improve skin elasticity, hydration, and reduces wrinkles.
  • However, the speaker notes that the results of the meta-analysis may be skewed by outlier studies that showed extreme benefits, which were excluded in sensitivity analyses.

Sensitivity and Subgroup Analysis in Research

  • The speaker explains the concept of sensitivity analysis, which tests the robustness of the meta-analysis results by removing individual studies to assess their impact.
  • In this analysis, collagen supplements showed no significant improvement in skin hydration, elasticity, or wrinkle reduction when outlier studies were excluded.
  • Furthermore, a subgroup analysis based on the funding source revealed that studies funded by companies selling collagen products reported significant benefits, while independently funded studies showed no significant effects.

Quality of Studies and Methodological Concerns

  • The meta-analysis also included a subgroup analysis based on the methodological quality of the studies, revealing that high-quality studies did not find significant effects from collagen supplementation.
  • Low-quality studies, which often had biases due to improper randomization or blinding, reported beneficial effects of collagen supplementation.
  • The speaker emphasizes that replication of results across various analyses is essential for establishing the validity of any scientific claim, and collagen studies have not consistently shown positive outcomes.

Collagen as a Fitness Supplement

  • The speaker critiques the marketing of collagen as a fitness supplement, highlighting its poor amino acid profile compared to other protein sources.
  • Collagen is noted to be low in essential amino acids, particularly branched-chain amino acids like leucine, which are crucial for muscle protein synthesis.
  • In comparisons with whey protein, collagen is shown to be less effective in stimulating muscle protein synthesis and does not have a significant impact on connective tissue synthesis relative to whey.

Concerns About Collagen Application Methods

  • The speaker questions the efficacy of collagen in topical applications, such as creams or drinks, arguing that large collagen molecules cannot penetrate the skin effectively.
  • When ingested, collagen is broken down into amino acids during digestion, meaning that the body does not receive collagen directly but rather its constituent parts.
  • The speaker concludes that, based on the available research, collagen supplementation may not provide the benefits that are often claimed and suggests that individuals may be wasting their resources on such products.
2 Likes
#210

If the only detriment is a waste of resources, I’m willing to continue this low cost supplement as the potential benefits outweigh the detriment.

6 Likes
#211

Great new video from Siim Land. Seems like the bias is on the side of the people who want it to fail so badly and not the industry funded side. The bottom line is that all signs point to collagen working for skin health.

Intro 00:00

  • A 2025 meta-analysis claimed that collagen supplements don’t improve skin, but the study has several flaws 00:18

  • The study found that collagen supplements significantly improved skin hydration, elasticity, and wrinkles, but the authors concluded that there’s no evidence of skin anti-aging benefits due to funding source issues 00:54

  • The study’s conclusion is questionable, as industry funding doesn’t immediately mean the results are wrong, and the analysis didn’t have a large enough sample size for non-funded studies 01:10

New study saying collagen doesn’t work 00:24

  • The study analyzed 23 randomized control trials on 1474 participants and found that collagen supplements improved skin hydration, elasticity, and wrinkles, but only when funded by the supplement industry 00:43

  • The authors’ conclusion that collagen doesn’t work is based on excluding studies funded by the supplement industry, which may not be a valid reason 00:59

  • The analysis has major flaws, including the fact that industry funding doesn’t necessarily mean the results are wrong, and the sample size for non-funded studies was too small 01:20

Outlier studies 02:05

  • The authors excluded high-quality studies that showed significant benefits from collagen, categorizing them as “outlier studies” 02:10

  • These studies, including one from 2018 and another from 2020, found significant improvements in skin roughness, moisture, elasticity, and wrinkle reduction 02:38

  • The exclusion of these studies seems arbitrary, and their results actually support the effectiveness of collagen supplements 02:52

Lowest performing study = actually shows benefits 04:09

  • Even the lowest-performing study in the analysis, which was non-funded, found significant reductions in skin roughness, wrinkle height, and eye wrinkle volume 04:21

  • The study’s results were statistically significant, but were downplayed in the analysis, which averaged out multiple wrinkle metrics into a single marker 04:46

  • The study’s findings support the conclusion that collagen peptides can significantly reduce wrinkles and improve skin elasticity 05:20

Why it’s a bad business move to fund supplement research 06:31

  • Funding a study by the supplement industry does not immediately mean the study is bad or the results are invalid, but it should be taken with a grain of salt 06:31

  • Supplement companies funding research on non-patentable ingredients like collagen can be a bad business move, as competitors can use the same research to promote their products 07:11

  • Big pharmaceutical companies do not fund research on generic supplements like collagen because they cannot be patented, and instead focus on patented drugs 07:36

1 Like
#212

The collagen debate is a bit silly really. You need a mixture of amino acids to get good skin development. You can get this from collagen.

2 Likes
#213

The better debate is how it fares against whey for skin outcomes but they haven’t been tested head to head. I’m thinking collagen would win for purely skin outcomes. Obviously, it’s inferior to whey from a protein standpoint.

2 Likes
#214

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41514-025-00280-7

A collagen amino acid composition supplementation reduces biological age in humans and increases health and lifespan in vivo

5 Likes
#215

As a marathon runner I’m rather obsessed about tendon and cartilage health and I’ve followed with interest the work of Keith Baar on collagen for tendons/cartilage.
I was already supplementing with collagen + vitamin C but this seems to bring it to the next level:

OK maybe this should cool me down a bit:

I hope Nature did a proper review.

Here is the commercial supplement: Collagen Activator

In conclusion I will stick to my larger dose of 15g collagen + 50 (min) mg Vit-C + 12 mg astaxanthin.
Not sure yet about Ca-AKG but it needs to be in an effective form which is expensive IIRC.

4 Likes
#216

Interestingly the longest median lifespan in the worm experiment showed 10:1:1 Gly:Pro:Hyp ratio, longer than 3:1:1.

image

Maybe the “extra” glycine contributes to higher glutathione.

2 Likes
#217

BTW Heat inactivated bacteria has a massive impact for the nematodes.

image
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1 Like
#218

I’ve been taking VeCollal Type I (hair/skin) for a couple of years and was just about to stop my subscription because I assumed I’d hear about it more often if vegan collagen worked.

They have recently come out with VeCollal Type 2 that is for joints and bones (if it could help with osteoperosis, it would be a good investment).

(Fwiw, I get this in a drink made by Feel)

@cl-user because it’s in nature, I’m now thinking the effects are real. Would you mind taking a look at Vecollal and let me know if you think that is as good as the Avea Life activator? I am open to making the switch if we think any of this could help me with bones or skin. (I’m not concerned about my tendons, says everyone until they have a problem:)

EDIT: I forgot to add that I already take ca-akg and astaxanthin, but so I’m not clear if I’m already getting the same benefit.

VeCollal type 1
VeCollal® (Glycine, L-Proline, L-Alanine, Gotu Kola Extract (Centella Asiatica Leaf Extract, Maltodextrin)

Type 2
Ingredients : VeCollal® Type 2 (Glycine, L-Proline, L-Alanine, L-Aspartic Acid, L-Glutamine, Elderberry Extract Powder, L-Glutamic Acid, L-Arginine, L-Serine Monohydrochloride, L-Leucine, L-Valine, L-Threonine, L-Glutamine, L-Lysine Monohydrochloride, Ascorbic Acid, L-Isoleucine, L-Phenylalanine, L-Tyrosine, L-Methionine, L-Histidine, L-Tryptophan, Turmeric Extract)

#219

VeCollal is Glycine, L-Proline, L-Alanine but they don’t give the ratios. They are missing Hydroxyproline though. Hydroxyproline is an important proportion of collagen so it’s probably better to have it.

There are plenty of vegan collagen substitutes. I just looked on amazon and here is one for which they give the amino acid profile and is has Glycine, Proline and Hydroxyproline in a somewhat similar ratio at around 2:1:1.
You can add some glycine to it and get pretty close to the 3:1:1 of the paper.

Or you can take any other one that gives its amino acid profile and add Glycine and eventually Proline to get the 3:1:1 ratio.

BTW you could just buy the Glycine, Proline and Hydroxyproline powders and mix that yourself.
Here is some Hydroxyproline powder I just googled

3 Likes
#220

@cl-user, thank you for breaking it down for me.

I went to order the Hydroxyproline powder so I could make my own (I love that idea!), but I see they don’t ship to the US.

FYI, for Black Friday, if you buy 3 months worth of Avea Collagen Activator, it’s currently an extra 25% off, and they are throwing in a free month, so that works out to be $44 per month for 4 months. I’m almost out of my CA AKG, so I can justify the cost that way.

Having said that, I don’t know if just taking CA AKG powder in a drink works, but if I do pull the trigger, it gives me time to find a way to get Hydroxyproline powder to make my own brew.