#41

I’m not sure on the heart rate thing as we take the DHEA the same time we take our night time Ipa+CJC stack and that alone increases heart rate a bit.

I picked 75mg as it seems to be middle ground between 50 and 150 as acceptable/safe doses. Some people dose as high as 200mg but I would not be comfortable with that. A friend tried the 75mg and found it made him “angry” so he stopped and became his old lovable self shortly after.

The effect of six months treatment with a 100 mg daily dose of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) on circulating sex steroids, body composition and muscle strength in age-advanced men and women

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#42

I noticed very elevated heart rate when I went from 25mg to 50mg as it took me to way above physiological range of DHEA-S level

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#43

I find that with most things I’m what I’d call a low to moderate responder as far as noticeable effects.

I often get asked “how did you feel when you took XYZ?” and rarely do I “feel” much of anything. I’d love to be able to do more testing but for now I’d rather put that money into some else LoL!

I suck at being a good guinea pig other than I’m “in” when “it” looks intriguing…

#44

Rapamycin inhibits the downstream effects of IGF-1, and IGF-1 rescued rapa-induced growth inhibition, so there is an interplay between rapa and IGF-1.
IGF-1 rescues rapamycin-induced cell growth inhibition

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#45

The article believes that the inhibition of part of the downstream signaling (the mTOR - 4E-BP1. axis) is bypassed. However it is an oldish article (2006), I wonder if the topic has been explored further by other authors.

The rescue of p-4E-BP1 despite complete inhibition of mTOR-raptor kinase activity supports the existence of non-mTOR inputs to 4E-BP1.

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#46

Growth hormone–deficient Ames dwarf mice resist sarcopenia and exhibit enhanced endurance running performance at 24 months

Ames dwarf mice (df/df) live 50% longer than normal littermates due to a genetic defect in growth hormone (GH) signaling. The enhanced longevity of Ames dwarfs has been studied extensively in an endocrinological context of cellular metabolism and increased resistance to oxidative stress (Bartke. World J Mens Health 37(1):19, 8; Bartke 2; BartkeJ Am Aging Assoc 23(4):219, 10; Bartke. World J Mens Health 39(3):454-465, 11; Brown-Borg et al. Nature 384(6604):33-33, 1; Masternak et al. 2018). However, the skeletal muscle system is relatively unexplored, the quality of which dictates metabolic homeostasis, permits movement and exercise, and exerts paracrine effects on other organs (Delmonico and Beck Am J Lifestyle Med 11(2):167-181, 25; Evans et al. GeroScience 46(1):183, 26; Kim and Kim. Endocrinol Metab (Seoul) 35(1):1-6, 15; Masternak et al. 2018).

Here, we characterize the fitness capacity and skeletal muscle morphology of Ames mice to determine if previously established longevous effects of GH deficiency extend to skeletal muscle tissue. Mutually exclusive, age-matched cohorts of male Ames mice and wildtype controls performed grip strength, rotarod, and endurance running experiments over 6 months. The largest difference in physical performance was observed in endurance running capacity, where dwarf mice outperformed wildtype controls increasingly with age. Tibialis anterior (TA) muscles were evaluated for myofiber size, quality, and environment. Ames mice show reduced myofiber cross-sectional area (CSA) paired with increased myofibers per muscle. Dwarf myofiber populations are less heterogenous in size and seemingly resist sarcopenia, as skeletal muscle from aged individuals shows youthful morphological resemblance in mean myofiber CSA, size frequency distribution, and presence of fibrotic tissue. Declines in fitness performance and myofiber integrity were observable in age-matched wildtype controls. Utilizing an established longevity model to investigate skeletal muscle function and morphology is a novel approach to gaining insight into the seemingly inverse relationship between GH signaling and mammalian longevity.

Open access paper:

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#47

While that may be the case with mice, personally I’m a bit more interested in having strong tendons and ligaments.

Since BPC 157 stimulates hGH receptors in ligaments and tendon, in humans, and having a more “youthful” level of hGH at the “right” time could help maintain and possibly strengthen my old man connective tissues. So I’m willing to trade a bit of “longevity” for strength.

Abstract

Tendon collagen content and circulating growth hormone (GH) are reduced in elderly. In a placebo-controlled, double-blinded study, we examined if local injections of rhGH enhance collagen synthesis in healthy elderly men (61 ± 1 yr). Two injections of rhGH or saline (control) were injected into each of the patient’s patellar tendons, respectively. Subsequently, tendon collagen fractional synthesis rate (FSR) and an indirect marker of type I collagen synthesis (PINP) were measured.

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00816.2012
s4

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#48

Me too. I want to run for five more years, and I don’t care what happens after that.

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#49

In his study of centenarians Nir Barzilai found that many centenarians had a mutation that hindered the cell’s ability to take up IGF. Sounds consistent with the finding that centenarians tend to be smaller (catabolic?) – and in the extreme, tiny (Laron dwarves). The extreme end of the catabolic spectrum.

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#50

Good thing you are probably getting both longevity and strength

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#51

But is that what happens or are you trading more strength now for less strength further in the future?

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#52

But the results were not statistically significant - and the results they looked at were only hours after the stimulation and not if the tendons actually became healthier and stronger?

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#53

Is there new evidence to that view? When it was discussed and debated a while back on the forum it seemed like the balance of evidence was that there is indeed likely such a trade off

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#54

That’s a good question, I’d have to ask, why would I lose strength? How do I lose strength as I age? what can I do to maintain strength as I age?

I think one way to maintain strength is exercise. Which provides an opportunity for injury. Since I now heal quicker than I did 2 years ago and that I recover rapidly from high physical exertion, I find I can work harder and longer than many of my peers. They all complain about their aches, pains and nagging injuries. I don’t have any of those any more.

All my old injuries that nagged at me, like my left infraspinatus from an injury 13 years ago, both my broken ankles that nagged at me for nearly 2 years, all those are non-issues in the past 18 months. Physio did nothing for those issues.

So I find that to be a good thing, personally.

And my hope is that I can continue to be a physical specimen over the next couple of decades LoL!

#55

Not to my knowledge, unless you consider TRIIM-X new, which some people are skeptical of.

Here is what Grok says

“ Low growth hormone (GH) levels, a condition known as growth hormone deficiency (GHD), can lead to a variety of detrimental effects on health and well-being. Some of the key consequences of low GH levels include:

  1. Decreased Muscle Mass: Growth hormone plays a crucial role in muscle growth and maintenance. Low GH levels can lead to a decrease in muscle mass and strength, which can affect physical performance and overall mobility.

  2. Increased Body Fat: GH helps regulate metabolism and fat distribution. Low levels can lead to increased body fat, particularly around the abdomen, and may contribute to obesity.

  3. Reduced Bone Density: Growth hormone is important for bone health. Low GH levels can lead to decreased bone density, increasing the risk of osteoporosis and fractures.

  4. Fatigue and Low Energy: Individuals with low GH levels often report feelings of fatigue, low energy, and decreased stamina, which can impact daily activities and quality of life.

  5. Impaired Exercise Capacity: Low GH levels can affect physical performance, leading to reduced exercise capacity and endurance.

  6. Mood Changes: Some individuals with growth hormone deficiency may experience mood disturbances, including depression, anxiety, and a general decrease in quality of life.

  7. Cognitive Effects: There is some evidence to suggest that low GH levels may be associated with cognitive decline or difficulties with memory and concentration.

  8. Increased Risk of Cardiovascular Issues: Low GH levels may be linked to an unfavorable lipid profile, including higher levels of triglycerides and lower levels of HDL cholesterol, which can increase the risk of cardiovascular disease.

  9. Impaired Immune Function: Growth hormone has a role in immune function, and low levels may lead to a weakened immune response, making individuals more susceptible to infections.

  10. Delayed Recovery: Individuals with low GH levels may experience slower recovery from injuries and illnesses due to impaired tissue repair and regeneration.

It’s important to note that the effects of low growth hormone can vary widely among individuals, and not everyone with low GH levels will experience all of these symptoms. If someone suspects they have low growth hormone levels, they should consult a healthcare professional for evaluation and potential treatment options.”

People can do what they think is best but I’ll be keeping my growth hormone levels in the physiological range if I can help it. I still am not convinced of a longevity trade off, despite what certain mouse and dwarf studies show.

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#56

Sorry I was talking about generally healthy, longevity optimizers - not talking about people who have this deficiency

For context: Estimated prevalence is around 1 to 3 per 10,000 adults. from a quick search

Think we should think about what is good for the other 99.97 to 99.99% of adults who do not have that condition

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#57

Sorry, I’m not thinking about those people :slight_smile:

Why not? because I’m not managing their life.

#58

But we are discussion things in the sense of what is relevant for our peers on the forum - do you know care about most of us on the forum?

And even if not, if you are only talking about people with an orphan condition you should explicitly stay to be transparent

Btw - are you saying that you are among the rare first 0.01-0.03% yourself?

#59

Fair point if we are discussing clinically diagnosed growth hormone deficiency (as Grok wrote).

Let’s face it though, how many doctors see the symptoms listed there and think to diagnose that condition? Those symptoms are also associated with aging and hormonal decline in general. People with lower than average IGF1 levels typically present those symptoms.

So with that in mind, we are talking about longevity optimizers, despite the wording.

It’s also important to remember that HGH rejuvenated the thymus in every “older” person that participated in the TRIIM trials.

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#60

Neo, I’m happy that you are presenting the other side of this discussion so others can make an informed decision. I believe that is what this whole process is about.

I view the members of this forum differently, they are all grown ups making their own decisions to experiment with their health. I’m not anyone’s nanny. Should I care about that to the point where I don’t share my personal ideas that may or may not be harmful to them? or can I not “care” and let others decide for them selves?

I choose not to care what others do with their health.

An no I do not have a rare condition, I’m just a one of a kind rarity :slight_smile: