Pat25
#51
Thanks! I thought so but I was a bit confused, since in terms of facial skin benefits (hydration, elasticity, etc) an estriol cream may potentially be more effective, also for males?
Albeit of course an estriol cream wouldn’t have an inhibiting effect on DHT, which the 17-alpha estradiol cream should have.
As a female I’m also not sure what may be an option given the conflicting results with 17-alpha estradiol in male vs. female rodents in the ITP. Those results did make me wonder whether 17-alpha estradiol may be beneficial to use in peri-/post-menopausal women. Since I’m neither of both, I’m not sure whether it would be a good idea to go the 17-alpha estradiol route. Albeit I may still want to give it a try on my hair.
3 Likes
Pat25
#52
Does the 17-alpha-estradiol serum create scalp greasiness in others? I avoid washing my scalp too often, as with fine, long hair I end up with knots that take hours to detangle.
Doesn’t 17b estradiol also strongly inhibit DHT?
Pat25
#54
Hope you don’t mind I’m including a LLM’s summary:
Source: Testosterone Metabolism in Human Skin Cells in vitro and Its Interaction with Estradiol and Dutasteride
LLM response:
"Information about the effects of 17β-estradiol and DHT on skin cells:
Effects on Skin Cells
- Testosterone metabolism:
- Human skin regulates testosterone action through cell-type-specific activation or deactivation.
- Different skin cell types show varying patterns of testosterone metabolism.
- Keratinocytes and Dermal Papilla Cells (DPC):
- In these cell types, dihydrotestosterone (DHT) formation from testosterone is relatively low.
- Androstenedione is the main metabolite produced in keratinocytes and DPC.
- Fibroblasts:
- In skin fibroblasts, DHT formation is more pronounced, especially at lower testosterone concentrations (10^-8 M).
- Effects of 17β-estradiol:
- Both 17α-estradiol and 17β-estradiol, at nontoxic concentrations, decreased the formation of 17-ketometabolites in skin cells.
- This suggests that estradiol can influence testosterone metabolism in skin cells, potentially affecting the balance of androgens.
- Cell-type specificity:
- The effects of testosterone and its metabolites, as well as the influence of estradiol, appear to be cell-type specific within the skin.
Implications
- The interaction between 17β-estradiol and DHT in skin cells is more complex than simple inhibition.
- 17β-estradiol appears to modulate testosterone metabolism in skin cells, which could indirectly affect DHT levels or activity.
- The effects vary depending on the specific skin cell type (keratinocytes, fibroblasts, or dermal papilla cells).
It’s important to note that while 17β-estradiol influences testosterone metabolism in skin cells, the research doesn’t describe a direct inhibition of DHT by 17β-estradiol in these cells. Instead, it suggests a more nuanced interaction where estradiol affects the overall androgen metabolism in skin tissue."
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Pat25
#55
Having copied all that, as a female I’d not use 17-beta estradiol (unless in (peri-)menopause).
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JKPrime
#56
Scalp. As effective as 2% minoxidil for hair regrowth per study on Korean women.
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blsm
#57
@Pat25 As a female I started using my estriol vaginal cream on my face and neck in the spring of this year and definitely find it helpful for the tight dry feeling I developed with menopause. I can say that with confidence because I’m out of it atm and there’s a noticeable difference.
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Dr.Bart
#58
Excellent, my theory seemed to be correct then, makes perfect sense, in a certain sense estrogen is an anabolic steroid - for skin, tissue and bones… not sure about muscle.
Wouldn’t be wild if also prevented facial bone and fat loss that cause so much of volume loss in the aging face (hollow effect)? I hope rapamycin does some of that as well, that’s my long shot theory.
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I wonder if there is some potent form of estrogen that does not go systemic. It would be ideal for application on the hair and forehead.
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Pat25
#60
Thanks, blsm. Great to hear it has given you such visible results, and thanks for sharing 
! Sounds like something I may want to give a try, a few times per week. Just wondering a bit if an estriol cream (albeit weaker than estradiol) could still influence estrogen levels, but perhaps if it’s only used on the face and sporadically, it would be less of an issue.
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Pat25
#61
It would be. Have never heard of it though. Albeit estriol is significantly less potent than estradiol (and estrone), at least the potential systemic effects should be less. Personally I may give an estriol cream a try, but if I do: at most using it twice per week or so /in not too high concentrations.
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blsm
#62
Last year I read a really interesting book called Breath by James Nestor that had a chapter on chewing as helpful for building facial bone so I decided to give it a try. I’ve been chewing Falim gum 2-3 times per day for 30 minutes over the past 14 months and it indeed seems to at least have made a modest difference in my appearance. I’m not a doctor or a dentist but I figured this n1 experiment was pretty benign and I could stop or take a break at anytime if I didn’t like it but I plan on continuing chewing.
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LaraPo
#63
Great minds think alike! 
I started doing it last year. Bought Falim on Amazon. It really helps! Being almost 70, I still don’t have jowls, which contributes to a younger look.
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blsm
#64
WooHoo! That’s wonderful news!
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Exercising the masseter isn’t likely to build bone on the mandible. If you look at the origin and insertion of the muscles of mastication, medial and lateral pterygoid, temporalis and masseter you can somewhat visualize the direction of forces. Possibly, it might only generate more tori, although that process isn’t well understood. More likely it would create or advance abfractions on the teeth. In some, heavy chewing, as suggested above could lead to TMJ problems. But, if you like the Brad Pitt look, hypermasseterism, it could be worthwhile.
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LaraPo
#66
Chewing is part of facial exercise routine which supports facial muscles. I do facial exercises regularly in addition to using micro-current which also contracts muscles.
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Dr.Bart
#67
My masseters get a great work out at night when I grind and clench my teeth for that chipmunk look 
I have to massage them during them during the day as my jaw clicks when I eat.
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I recommend you watch this podcast with a woman OBGYN who’s using and prescribing rapamycin; she reports good results from using rapamycin the past 17 months (specifically with regard to skin): Rapamycin for Fertility and Menopause; Clinical Results
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helenas
#69
Another underestimated epidemic. The search for simple, pre-made foods like soylent and smoothies, health drinks, palatable all contribute to weak jaws. We focus so much on glamour muscles and yet never work out the ones that require usage on a daily basis.
I’ve been chewing mastica for some time now, no comparison, the best gum to workout the masseter. Everyone comments on mine, had to explain to my dentist friend what it is.
If I were less private of a person, I’d show videos of me doing workouts by hanging weights from a towel or exercise band and clenching the towel with my teeth to do mouth/neck curls. Friends think I’m ridiculous. I think they have weak mouths.
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There’s some debate about whether topical estradiol raises systemic estrogen. Personally, I’m avoiding it because (tiny) uterine cysts developed with a very small increase in my transdermal estradiol dosage.
My integrative medicine MD suggested topical estriol, a much weaker estrogen. He said there’s some evidence that estriol may be key to balancing other hormone levels for women on HRT.
I was getting it compounded, but it was expensive, so I now use the OTC Emerita estriol cream. I do see improvements in facial skin appearance, texture, and hydration.
This study by Alloy found that estriol cream had similar results to estradiol topical cream:
Estriol seems safer-- particularly for women with family history of breast cancer or other risk factors.
Bridget
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